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  #11  
Old 08-21-2014, 11:27 AM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straightback View Post
I always understood this rule to apply to a different type of throw - the throw you get from say 3 or 9 o'clock English rotationally throws a ball struck full in the face about 1" every foot. I think this was a quotation I saw from Bud Harris in one of Beard's tomes. Nearly certain.

Accordingly, there a a few types of situations where we talk about "throw" that actually differ.
Hitting a frozen combo from an angle is the same as hitting a single OB full in the face with sidespin.

1 inch per foot is the maximum throw (for typical conditions - i.e., "average" cleanliness, wear, humidity, etc.). You'd usually get less than this.

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  #12  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:31 PM
straightback straightback is offline
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[QUOTE=Patrick Johnson;136835]Hitting a frozen combo from an angle is the same as hitting a single OB full in the face with sidespin.

Similar. However, a frozen OB will never be spinning as much as a CB hit with 3 or 9 o'clock English. Also, a frozen throw is more of an angular hit that merely relies on angle and force, whereas the other throw relies on an orbiting CB and the transferred English and energy from the spin.
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  #13  
Old 08-21-2014, 07:51 PM
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Patrick Johnson Patrick Johnson is offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Me:
Hitting a frozen combo from an angle is the same as hitting a single OB full in the face with sidespin.
straightback:
Similar. However, a frozen OB will never be spinning as much as a CB hit with 3 or 9 o'clock English.
A frozen combo hit at 30 degrees will throw the 2nd OB as far as a single OB can be thrown with a spinning cue ball.

Quote:
Also, a frozen throw is more of an angular hit that merely relies on angle and force, whereas the other throw relies on an orbiting CB and the transferred English and energy from the spin.
They both rely on the same thing: the balls' surfaces rubbing against each other.

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  #14  
Old 08-21-2014, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
A frozen combo hit at 30 degrees will throw the 2nd OB as far as a single OB can be thrown with a spinning cue ball.


They both rely on the same thing: the balls' surfaces rubbing against each other.

pj
chgo
....hmmmm !!!.....yes...true...

......but, in one case (frozen balls....brrrrrr !!!).......the English that is being transferred is purely passing English....

......the other will use the passing English and also include the side spin of the Cue ball (both transferable to the OB)......the amount of throw....depends on the angle of attack....and the amount of side spin used....

......that being said..... I would conclude that the ...side spin could invoke a greater throw of the OB......if the angle of the shot....dictated the passing English as well.....
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  #15  
Old 08-21-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by onepocket926 View Post
....hmmmm !!!.....yes...true...

......but, in one case (frozen balls....brrrrrr !!!).......the English that is being transferred is purely passing English....

......the other will use the passing English and also include the side spin of the Cue ball (both transferable to the OB)......the amount of throw....depends on the angle of attack....and the amount of side spin used....

......that being said..... I would conclude that the ...side spin could invoke a greater throw of the OB......if the angle of the shot....dictated the passing English as well.....
The main point I've tried to make about throw is that increasing the rubbing speed only adds throw up to a point - adding more speed beyond this point actually reduces throw (remember the peeling out tire analogy?). Less is more.

Maximum throw without sidespin is produced by a half ball cut - adding any sidespin to a half ball cut (or thinner) reduces throw. Maximum throw without a cut angle is 1/2 maximum sidespin - adding any cut angle to a 1/2 maximum sidespin shot (or more) reduces throw.

In other words hitting a frozen combo at a 30 degree angle or a single OB without sidespin at a 30 degree angle both generate the most throw possible. Adding sidespin to either one reduces the amount of throw.

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  #16  
Old 08-22-2014, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
The main point I've tried to make about throw is that increasing the rubbing speed only adds throw up to a point - adding more speed beyond this point actually reduces throw (remember the peeling out tire analogy?). Less is more.

Maximum throw without sidespin is produced by a half ball cut - adding any sidespin to a half ball cut (or thinner) reduces throw. Maximum throw without a cut angle is 1/2 maximum sidespin - adding any cut angle to a 1/2 maximum sidespin shot (or more) reduces throw.

In other words hitting a frozen combo at a 30 degree angle or a single OB without sidespin at a 30 degree angle both generate the most throw possible. Adding sidespin to either one reduces the amount of throw.

pj
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.......my new thread may better explain my thoughts on the subject.....

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9284
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2014, 07:47 PM
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Patrick, don't you think the frozen ball will throw more than a cut shot because of the added wight of the cue ball and the frozen first ball? This is what I think intuitively and from experience - that the frozen combo can be thrown more.

Similar to the case of a four ball string on the foot spot, the lowest ball can be pocketed from just off the center of the foot rail with follow, hitting it full. This case relates to spin transfer so it's different but kinda conveys the concept.

(I admit I have never gotten this to go but anyone can see the effect )

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  #18  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by treeMan View Post
Patrick, don't you think the frozen ball will throw more than a cut shot because of the added wight of the cue ball and the frozen first ball? This is what I think intuitively and from experience - that the frozen combo can be thrown more.

Similar to the case of a four ball string on the foot spot, the lowest ball can be pocketed from just off the center of the foot rail with follow, hitting it full. This case relates to spin transfer so it's different but kinda conveys the concept.

(I admit I have never gotten this to go but anyone can see the effect )

tree
....You certainly have a longer contact duration with frozen balls (brrrrrr).....I think speed is the determining factor here......the slower You hit it...the more it throws.....
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  #19  
Old 08-22-2014, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
"Maximum throw, under typical conditions, is about 1 inch per foot of CB travel, which is about 5 degrees."
I have two questions/comments. Does distnce of CB travel really matter, or was "CB" a typo and the 1 inch per foot actually refers to OB travel?

Straightback: My impression is that sidespin on the CB does not affect OB direction of travel on an dead-on full hit. At least a slight off-center hit seems to me to be needed. (I agree this doesn't sound right, but it's what I think I've observed.)

Last edited by LSJohn; 08-22-2014 at 08:10 PM. Reason: two typos
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