Go Back   OnePocket.org Forums > One Pocket Forum
Register FAQ Members List Social Groups Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 08-24-2014, 10:10 AM
onepocket926's Avatar
onepocket926 onepocket926 is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Anderson, CA
Posts: 744
Send a message via Yahoo to onepocket926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve View Post
I understand that Ronnie considered his break to be worth more than the conventional 1-1/2 balls or so -- maybe that varied depending on the table and conditions though.
...I believe his break was worth....."all the money"........I'd hate to be on the other side of it.......the only time You'd get to the table.....would be to rack......
__________________
"...I'll take 9 to 6....ok then...I'll give you 9 to 6..."
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:01 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: monett missouri
Posts: 7,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by onepocket926 View Post
...I believe his break was worth....."all the money"........I'd hate to be on the other side of it.......the only time You'd get to the table.....would be to rack......
My thinking has been going the other way -- not specifically with Ronnie, but in general. (Nobody seems to agree with me so I must be full of sh*t.)

I recently re-watched the entire series of about 100 Accu-Stats one pocket matches I have and although I didn't chart it, my strong impression is that the non-breaker is winning more than 40% of the games. (There are at least two or three where the non-breaker won all five games in a race to three.)

What I'm taking from this is that the break is not nearly as strong between top players as it is between us lesser mortals, and not as much as 1.5-2 balls.

Can I get an Amen from anybody?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:03 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: monett missouri
Posts: 7,535
Default

Another thing. For a best-in-the-world defensive player like Artie must have been, giving up the break would have to be less significant, wouldn't it?
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:05 AM
androd's Avatar
androd androd is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New Braunfels tx.
Posts: 7,097
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve View Post
I understand that Ronnie considered his break to be worth more than the conventional 1-1/2 balls or so -- maybe that varied depending on the table and conditions though.
11/8 is about 1-1/2 balls. I'm sure ronnie thought that about right.
Rod.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:11 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: monett missouri
Posts: 7,535
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by androd View Post
11/8 is about 1-1/2 balls. I'm sure ronnie thought that about right.
Rod.
Good point.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:23 AM
straightback straightback is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: owensboro, ky
Posts: 1,851
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSJohn View Post
My thinking has been going the other way -- not specifically with Ronnie, but in general. (Nobody seems to agree with me so I must be full of sh*t.)

I recently re-watched the entire series of about 100 Accu-Stats one pocket matches I have and although I didn't chart it, my strong impression is that the non-breaker is winning more than 40% of the games. (There are at least two or three where the non-breaker won all five games in a race to three.)

What I'm taking from this is that the break is not nearly as strong between top players as it is between us lesser mortals, and not as much as 1.5-2 balls.

Can I get an Amen from anybody?
LSJohn, I will give you an "amen" to this extent: it is my firm belief that when we value the break at 1.5 balls, THAT IS PREMISED UPON THE BREAKER EXECUTING A NEAR-FLAWLESS BREAK AND THE RACK OPENING UP. Problem is, the break is so fickle that the breaker either doesn't get the cue ball where they want it, or they don't get a nice opening of the balls on their side. Even the best players in the world don't achieve even an 8 out of 10 break with marked frequency. Let's take our most beloved player -Efren Reyes - his break is often not ideal, struck at slow speed with only a modicum of inside English. He rarely gets the cue ball high enough (close enough to the side pocket) and his rack does not open as much as others who hit it harder. [As an aside, this is odd since Reyes excels at all of these type of shots; it is further kind of odd since he is the all-time world champion of inside English...maybe he likes conservative breaks like Grady often touted?)

So, it is safe to say that a lot of factors go into the valuation of the break. (But then again, so does every single move or decision in this kingly game!)
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:31 AM
gulfportdoc's Avatar
gulfportdoc gulfportdoc is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Gulfport, Mississippi
Posts: 9,188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lll View Post
ive never heard the break was worth three balls.....................
i beleive most would say the break is worth 1-2 balls so artie was getting a 1-2 ball spot
but he was always starting on the defensive
the more experienced could comment on whats that worth

they never played so its a moot point.....

I too am fascinated and curious about that spot. Looking at it from Artie's perspective, if he liked it, I'm sure he figured to do well at it, that's for sure. He never made stupid games. In fact he stated that they both "loved the game". My guess is that Artie was comfortable with the room and the equipment, whereas Ronnie was not as familiar with those. He realized that giving RA the breaks was worth at least two balls to RA, thereby effectively making their game Artie getting 9-8. Artie probably figured that since no one could spot him at 1P at that time, he had another advantage.

RA probably figured the same about the value of the break, and, that since he could give almost any human alive 9-8 in those days, he had the advantage over this "regional" player. I'm not sure when this contest was proposed, but RA was probably in his prime and flyin' high (in more ways than one), and was bowling everyone over with his offensive prowess.

It gives testament to Artie's fearsome play that RA could not get backed for that proposition. I imagine RA too was mystified.

My comments are pure speculations. There are probably other angles I haven't considered. But matching up is a huge part of 1P, so it's interesting to try to understand the thinking behind famous props.

I hope Artie will come on here and share with us some of his thinking about the spot that was proposed. Also Cardone could probably shed some meaningful light on that spot with those two players, since he knew both of them, and has seasoned knowledge about handicapping. I don't know if Ghost was around at that time. If so he might share his reflections.

~Doc
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:45 AM
gulfportdoc's Avatar
gulfportdoc gulfportdoc is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Gulfport, Mississippi
Posts: 9,188
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSJohn View Post
My thinking has been going the other way -- not specifically with Ronnie, but in general. (Nobody seems to agree with me so I must be full of sh*t.)

I recently re-watched the entire series of about 100 Accu-Stats one pocket matches I have and although I didn't chart it, my strong impression is that the non-breaker is winning more than 40% of the games. (There are at least two or three where the non-breaker won all five games in a race to three.)

What I'm taking from this is that the break is not nearly as strong between top players as it is between us lesser mortals, and not as much as 1.5-2 balls.

Can I get an Amen from anybody?
I did the same thing with 50 matches, and kept statistics. Unfortunately I can't find my notes! But as I recall, the breaker won 60-65% of the time. I think it was closer to 62%.

However, as you know, any given match-up might vary widely, depending upon the equipment, the conditions, and the players' individual strengths.

In the case of the Artie/RA prop, my hunch is that giving all the breaks to RA was less of a concern to Artie, than the idea of getting all the breaks was to RA...

~Doc
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 08-24-2014, 11:51 AM
mr3cushion's Avatar
mr3cushion mr3cushion is offline
Suspended
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Cocoa Beach, FL
Posts: 6,062
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSJohn View Post
Another thing. For a best-in-the-world defensive player like Artie must have been, giving up the break would have to be less significant, wouldn't it?
Between two GOOD players, IMO, the break is worth, 1.5 balls or a little better. In the case of, RA breaking, and if he didn't make or hang a ball in his hole and AB's STRONG ability getting out of the break, it then would be worth, 0.5-1 ball between these two particular players!

I once saw Artie in Bensingers, on the tough tournament room table #24 Practicing a "backward" cut shot that is left sometimes, when the breaker is a little aggressive trying to open balls more, or on a NEW cloth. That corner ball jumps out where it's a tough cut but, it can be made. what makes it even tougher is when the breaker leaves the CB, "frozen or near frozen" close to the 2nd diamond on the long rail!

So, I'm watching him trying this shot, over and over again, and he starts making it on a regular basis, but, He keeps shooting it. So, I asked him, "Why are you still wasting time on that shot?" "You're hitting it perfect!" He say, "No I'm not," What do you mean." "Can't you see I'm NOT hitting the correct ball in the stack so I can "run out," I need to hit the corner balls on his side, so I can be behind the balls!"

This is the kind of mentality about EVERYTHING that Artie tried to do, especially in "pool" and of course, "sports betting." This is the mind set his opponents faced and regretted when the match was over! I can't tell how MANY TOP players came away from playing Artie, mumbling to themselves, "How the F**K this guy beat me," "I shoot BETTER, I BANK better, what happened?" What happened is, ARTIE, that's what happened! He played a game they ALL had NEVER seen or faded before!

Ask yourself, how did He WIN! He's a PERFECT gentleman to play with, NO sharking, NEVER says a word, DOESN"T take a piss break every 30 minutes and NEVER sits down, I'm talking for hours! I think John H. can attest to this even at Artie's older age. The guy is NOT human, they'll NEVER, IMO, be another player like him, UNLESS, He teaches someone the SAME method to a player that wants to work that hard at the game!

P.S. Unlike some others, (detainee), I don't knock MY FRIENDS or pull the covers off their lives, whether their alive or dead. I try to help and praise MY friends for the deeds they do or have done in their lives!

Last edited by mr3cushion; 08-24-2014 at 11:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 08-24-2014, 12:06 PM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
Verified Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: monett missouri
Posts: 7,535
Default

@Doc

Quote:
I think it was closer to 62%.
That could easily be in the range of my false memory, but is enough different from my 57-43 guess to turn the tide.

@Mr3C

Quote:
AB's STRONG ability getting out of the break, it then would be worth, 0.5-1 ball between these two particular players!
Yes, that's about what I was thinking for Artie, but I was also thinking it's more like 1-1.5 than 1.5-2 between two random top players. (Obviously much different on a table and set of balls where making a ball on the break is more common than usual.)

Thanks for your comments, guys. Someday I'll chart the whole 100 I watched, but I didn't start getting my impression until about halfway through (50 or so) and wasn't inclined to start over.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All original content Copyright Onepocket.org and/or the original author. All rights reserved.