Rules Question? If the break isn't legal...

Rules Question? If the break isn't legal...

  • Balls are reracked and breaker must attempt a legal break again

    Votes: 2 8.3%
  • Incoming player has the option of playing from there or requesting a rebreak

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • Incoming player has to play from where they lie

    Votes: 12 50.0%
  • Other -- please post an explanation!

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Total voters
    24

SactownTom

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Sacramento CA
Breaker miscues, misses rack completely.
I called a foul, and told the incoming shooter he had a choice of either breaking towards his pocket, or cue ball inplace.

Apparently I must have been suffering from some sort of billards malady that kills brain cells.

Both players agreed that the incoming player had way too much advantage by having the option of breaking. They both agreed that it was too much of a penalty. So they decided to just play 'cue ball inplace'.

I didn't have a problem with this so I wished them both 'good luck' and walked back to look up the details of the opening break in One Pocket.

Nothing specific in BCA or Texas Express about a cue ball that is miscued and doesn't hit the rack.

Opinions Please.
 

NH Steve

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Tom, what I put in the OnePocket.org Rules is this:
"As long as a legal stroke is employed from behind the head string on the break, the incoming player must play the balls where they lie – there are no re-racks for a pocket scratch or failure to contact a cushion or pocket a ball on the break." It would just be a foul.

I suppose the "legal stroke" phrase could raise a question -- but I believe according to the general rules of pocket billiards, a miscue is not illegal (except in the act of a masse or jump attempt?) -- it's the failure to hit a ball that creates the foul -- not the miscue itself.

Like I have said before, I am open to suggestion to improvements in wording on these rules, and in fact have already done quite a bit of tweaking based on comments that have come up here on the message board. The polls are helpful too, of course. Once these little details all get ironed out, it is my plan to have a straight up and down vote to "adopt" the OnePocket.org rules as our "official" One Pocket rules -- at the moment I consider them in the draft/revision stage -- although I think they are a hell of a lot better than anything else out there already.
 

SactownTom

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NH Steve said:
Tom, what I put in the OnePocket.org Rules is this:
"As long as a legal stroke is employed from behind the head string on the break, the incoming player must play the balls where they lie – there are no re-racks for a pocket scratch or failure to contact a cushion or pocket a ball on the break." It would just be a foul.

My mistaken ruling (yes, I will readily admit a mistake) may have come from my experience with the BCA rules regarding 8 ball breaks, where re-racks are an alternative for the incoming player.
 

suki

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Aug 3, 2004
Messages
328
From
Santa Cruz, Ca.
Here We Go Again

Here We Go Again

Didn't they go through all of this on az forum?
I have always played and always will play that the game does not begin until the cue ball hits the rack. I would not call a foul. Call it sportsmanship or whatever I just could not in good concience take advantage under those circumstances. BTW, I have never seen that happen on a once pocket break in my life. Amazing. I imagine it can happen I just never saw it before.
 

SactownTom

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Sacramento CA
suki said:
Didn't they go through all of this on az forum?
I have always played and always will play that the game does not begin until the cue ball hits the rack. I would not call a foul. Call it sportsmanship or whatever I just could not in good concience take advantage under those circumstances. BTW, I have never seen that happen on a once pocket break in my life. Amazing. I imagine it can happen I just never saw it before.

AZBilliards, IIRC, covered the 9 ball miscue break.

I never heard your rules. It must be a local thing.

As far as sportsmanship, if this happened anytime during the game would you let your opponent shot over again? Why would it be any different on the first shot of the game?

The game starts when leather hits the cue ball. At least it does in all of the tournaments I've been to in the last 15 years.
 

Keith McCready

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Jun 24, 2004
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I've always played it has to be a legal break in order for it to be a game.

When I have found myself kicking at the stack and the proper balls don't hit a rail, it's called a "scratch," I guess. So I would owe one, and the game goes on.

Most people play, if they're gambling, they'll take the scratch and the other guy gets to break.

But I have played it both ways, and I would prefer to play that it has to be a legal break in order to start the game. Just my opinion.
 

NH Steve

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New Hampshire
Keith McCready said:
I've always played it has to be a legal break in order for it to be a game.

When I have found myself kicking at the stack and the proper balls don't hit a rail, it's called a "scratch," I guess. So I would owe one, and the game goes on.

Most people play, if they're gambling, they'll take the scratch and the other guy gets to break.

But I have played it both ways, and I would prefer to play that it has to be a legal break in order to start the game. Just my opinion.
So Keith, would you say a rule something like this: In the event of failure to execute a legal break, the breaker is charged a one foul penalty, and the incoming player has the option either to play the balls as they lie, or require the breaker to break again. (something like that -- maybe the language could get cleaned up a little :) )
 

lfigueroa

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I had this happen to me a few years back vs Big Ed, here in St. Louis. Hill-hill, race to four for a couple of hundred, and he miscues on the break. Claims the game hasn't started. What to do, what to do...

So I let him break again, he makes ball on the break, runs five and sews me up. Of course he wins from there.

When I got home, I looked in my copy of "Winning One Pocket" and in the back, in the General Rules section it says, "On the opening break, the game is is considered to have commenced once the cueball has been struck by the cuetip and crosses the head string."

So the morale of the story is: no good deed goes unpunished.
 

gulfportdoc

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NH Steve said:
I suppose the "legal stroke" phrase could raise a question -- but I believe according to the general rules of pocket billiards, a miscue is not illegal (except in the act of a masse or jump attempt?) -- it's the failure to hit a ball that creates the foul -- not the miscue itself.

Steve I believe that the miscue is a foul and the breaker would then owe a ball. It would then be the opponent's turn wherever the cueball lies. After all, the breaker has already lost a big advantage by missing the stack, so a miscue should simply be only a 1 point foul. The incoming player would be happy that there were no balls in front of the breaker's pocket!

Doc
 

suki

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Messages
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From
Santa Cruz, Ca.
9 Ball Or One Pocket, Same Thing

9 Ball Or One Pocket, Same Thing

SactownTom said:
AZBilliards, IIRC, covered the 9 ball miscue break.

I never heard your rules. It must be a local thing.

As far as sportsmanship, if this happened anytime during the game would you let your opponent shot over again? Why would it be any different on the first shot of the game?

The game starts when leather hits the cue ball. At least it does in all of the tournaments I've been to in the last 15 years.
As Keith said he has played in both ways, so whether you heard of it or not means nothing.
Your question means nothing to me at this point because I play the game has started when the cue ball hits the balls. Your question about shooting over again is moot because it is in the middle of a game, of course that is a foul.
It is differerent cause I play the game has not started and.
If a tournament director plays it is a a foul I will abide by it but in any tournaments I run it would not be regardless of the wording in somebody's rule book. But as I said in my life I have not seen a miscue in a one pocket break in gambling or a tournament so it has never come up.
What would you call if I was breaking and for the hell of it I hit the cue ball two rails just to test the speed, would you call a foul? How are you going to prove my intention? Am I suppose to declare a practice stroke. After all I am hitting the cue ball and sending it over the head string. What if I stroke the ball, miscue but retrieve the ball before going over the head string? Can you absolutely say it was in play(going over the head string). I doubt it.
So why not forget the letter of the rule and play by the spirit and if someone miscues breaking and hits nothing in one pocket or nine ball let them retry.
Did you read what I said earlier, in good concience I could not call a foul.
I would not call it playing my Mom or Dad nor would I call it on you.

When in doubt check with the House Rules.
But like Keith said, the game don't start til the balls are hit.
 

gulfportdoc

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lfigueroa said:
When I got home, I looked in my copy of "Winning One Pocket" and in the back, in the General Rules section it says, "On the opening break, the game is is considered to have commenced once the cueball has been struck by the cuetip and crosses the head string."

Right on, Lou. Good to see you on 1P.O! I got tired of all the nits on RSB...
JoeyA is lurking, but he hasn't posted yet. Of course he's from New Orleans, so that's to be expected. :D

Doc
 

SactownTom

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suki said:
As Keith said he has played in both ways, so whether you heard of it or not means nothing. Means nothing? not sure what you mean here.
Your question means nothing to me at this point because I play the game has started when the cue ball hits the balls. Your question about shooting over again is moot because it is in the middle of a game, of course that is a foul.Fair enough, I understand we all have 'rights' to our differences. I am just trying to get opinions from the posters in this forum.
It is differerent cause I play the game has not started and.
If a tournament director plays it is a a foul I will abide by it but in any tournaments I run it would not be regardless of the wording in somebody's rule book. I have to be able to answer questions from the players in a tournament. Like I stated in the original post, this was the first time I had ever seen this situation. It was also the 1st time either player had seen this situation. In fact, all the players that I have discussed this had never seen this situation. That's why I posted this question. But as I said in my life I have not seen a miscue in a one pocket break in gambling or a tournament so it has never come up.
What would you call if I was breaking and for the hell of it I hit the cue ball two rails just to test the speed, would you call a foul? How are you going to prove my intention? Am I suppose to declare a practice stroke. After all I am hitting the cue ball and sending it over the head string. What if I stroke the ball, miscue but retrieve the ball before going over the head string? Can you absolutely say it was in play(going over the head string). I doubt it. It does not matter if the cue ball goes over the head string. If you are attempting to break the balls and you take your stance and are stroking to break, and you hit the cue ball, it is a foul. If you think otherwise, please share. In the "Spirit" of the game, are you suppose to let your opponent have 'Do Overs"?
So why not forget the letter of the rule and play by the spirit and if someone miscues breaking and hits nothing in one pocket or nine ball let them retry.Knowing the Rules and understanding them, and being able to explain them to players is part of the job of a tournament director. But, in the 'Spirit' of the Game, what the two players decide is always going to over rule what I am asked to decide.
Did you read what I said earlier, in good concience I could not call a foul.
I would not call it playing my Mom or Dad nor would I call it on you. In 'Good Concience' I have to be fair to the tournament players and show NO bias. I am responsible for the 'fairness' of the situation. I can't always go by 'good concience', I have to follow the rules and be fair to everyone.

When in doubt check with the House Rules. Always a safe way to go
But like Keith said, the game don't start til the balls are hit.Keith also said he played both ways.

I like when Suki makes me think.. good post Suki
 

suki

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Santa Cruz, Ca.
No Dispute On Your Ruling

No Dispute On Your Ruling

SactownTom said:
I like when Suki makes me think.. good post Suki

IF YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN BEFORE AND HAD NO WAY TO BASE A JUDGMENT FROM A RULE YOU ABSOLUTELY DID THE RIGHT THING ESPECIALLY IF THE PLAYERS NEVER SAW IT EITHER. PROBABLY IF I WAS PLAYING KEITH AND IT HAPPENED WE WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN ASKED THE T.D. WE JUST WOULD HAVE DONE IT THE WAY KEITH PREFERS, NOT A FOUL, AND TRY AGAIN. YES KEITH DID SAY HE SAW IT BOTH WAYS BUT PREFERS MINE.
ON MY EXAMPLES I AM ASSUMING THE RULE OF CUE TIP HITTING CUE BALL AND CROSSING THE HEAD STRING TO CONSTITUTE A LEGAL SHOT. SO IF I CATCH THE CUE BALL BEFORE CROSSING THE HEAD STRING ITS NOT A FOUL SO WHO IS GOING TO JUDGE IT IT DID OR NOT. ALSO I TAKE MY STANCE AND ADDRESS THE CUE BALL AND JUST SHOOT TO THE BOTTOM RAIL. TECHNICALLY THAT WOULD BE A FOUL EXCEPT I WAS JUST PRACTICING.
I JUST THINK THERE WILL NEVER BE AN ARGUMENT IF YOU JUST "DO OVER"
 

NH Steve

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Here are a couple of the general rules that relate to this issue (from the World Pool-Billiard Association General Rules -- same as the BCA):

http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules3.htm

3.8 CUE BALL ON OPENING BREAK

The opening break shot is taken with cue ball in hand behind the head string. The object balls are positioned according to specific game rules. On the opening break, the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the cue tip.
I'm not sure One Pocket needs a special rule for when "the game is considered to have commenced...", but we do need a rule for what to do in the event of an incomplete or illegal break, IMO

3.9 DEFLECTING THE CUE BALL ON THE GAME'S OPENING BREAK

On the break shot, stopping or deflecting the cue ball after it has crossed the head string and prior to hitting the racked balls is considered a foul and loss of turn. The opponent has the option of receiving cue ball in hand behind the head string or passing the cue ball in hand behind the head string back to the offending player. (Exception: 9-Ball, see Rule 5.3: "cue ball in hand anywhere on the table"). A warning must be given that a second violation during the match will result in the loss of the match by forfeiture. (See Rule 3.28.)
There's that passing the break over to the incoming player, too strong penalty in One Pocket IMO!

In general on an illegal break, it would be the simplest to assess a foul and then just have the incoming player play the balls where they lie. But I kinda like giving the incoming player the option of requesting a rebreak -- that would take any potential hanky-panky out of the situation in case the breaker comes up with a way of illegally breaking the balls that gives them a strong position advantage (like a too-soft rail first break). What's wrong with giving the incoming player the option of demanding a rebreak until they break them legally? Three fouls could come into play, too, of course -- plus the one ball penalty every time they fail to come up legal.
 

Keith McCready

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Just my opinion...

Just my opinion...

NH Steve said:
So Keith, would you say a rule something like this: In the event of failure to execute a legal break, the breaker is charged a one foul penalty, and the incoming player has the option either to play the balls as they lie, or require the breaker to break again. (something like that -- maybe the language could get cleaned up a little :) )

Steve, that would be a good way to do it: incoming player has the option of leaving the balls the way they are and the breaker owes a ball OR the breaker can break the balls again, costing him a ball. I don't think the breaker should have to lose the break because he made a foul. That will save a lot of arguing! ;)
 

lfigueroa

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gulfportdoc said:
Right on, Lou. Good to see you on 1P.O! I got tired of all the nits on RSB...
JoeyA is lurking, but he hasn't posted yet. Of course he's from New Orleans, so that's to be expected. :D

Doc


Thanks for the welcome Doc.

I can't believe Cannon Killer is just lurking -- he needs to start chirping here a bit. Lou
 

titanic jerry

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Defining terms!!!!

Defining terms!!!!

Hey Doc.....................In your humble opinion what is a nit??????????

Seriously what is RSB?

It seems one of the problems in creating a set of rules is trying to project every possible situation that could come up at any time during a game.

Did you always hear growing up " keep one foot on the floor" ?

We used to always play by a set of rules and then there were tournament rules which were tougher but we hardly ever saw a tournament as kids.

When the bar tables came out it was really important to read the house rules as it seemed like there were hundreds of ways to play 8 ball.

How are you hitting em ?

I will play by whatever rules are agreed to. It makes no difference as l;ong as both players have to abide by the same rules. Changing pockets in one pocket was to insure no one got the edge because of a table roll. If yopu are both playing on the same table whats the problem?????

Titanic Jerry
 

Pelican

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May 25, 2004
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Magnolia Springs, AL
It would appear based on the first option in the poll that the assumption is that the balls were hit. In that senerio if they were hit and nothing went to the rail then I would say foul and incoming shooter gets CB where it lay. If it was actually a miscue and nothing is disturbed then I would say the breaker would rebreak. I assume the rule mentioned about once the cueball crosses the headstring is only used in onepocket. Hum, guess I just haven't been at this game long enough. I be learnin'. :)

Later, Pel

(Oh yea, got the shirts. Love 'em)
 

casey

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Oct 18, 2004
Messages
3
From
New Orleans
Breaking Rule Question

Breaking Rule Question

I would not want to give my opponent the chance to break the balls again. Why give him the advantage of breaking again ( worth at least a ball and a half ) He could possibly make a ball on the break and run out. I would shoot where the cue ball stops. And he owes a ball. He should practice more on his break shots.
 
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