Efren not protecting leads?

koldcash

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No doubt Efren is the greatest of all time, but every time I watch him play, he stays in aggression mode bringing balls back down table, even with a big lead. I wonder if forcing the up table game would mess with his creativity. In my mind he would be even better if he protected leads.....curious what input other people have about this, especially people who have played him 1 hole.
 

onepockethacker

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No doubt Efren is the greatest of all time, but every time I watch him play, he stays in aggression mode bringing balls back down table, even with a big lead. I wonder if forcing the up table game would mess with his creativity. In my mind he would be even better if he protected leads.....curious what input other people have about this, especially people who have played him 1 hole.

Protecting leads has never been Efrens strength.. he always stays aggressive.. the funny thing is he won Derby City 4 years in a row races to 3 alternate break and reluctant to play the lead LOL unbelievable Billy I. would have a much better perspective on Efren than anyone.. hopefully he responds to this thread.
 

koldcash

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Protecting leads has never been Efrens strength.. he always stays aggressive.. the funny thing is he won Derby City 4 years in a row races to 3 alternate break and reluctant to play the lead LOL unbelievable Billy I. would have a much better perspective on Efren than anyone.. hopefully he responds to this thread.

Rob do you think he would be a better player if he protected the lead? Sometimes buntfest's have horrible effects on people's strokes, but it's hard to believe that is the case here. This has to be a conscious decision he is making to play this way I assume.
 
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koldcash

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Does Parica force the up table game? Another great is Rafael Martinez....never really see him force an up table game.
 

onepockethacker

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Rob do you think he would be a better player if he protected the lead? Sometimes buntfest's have horrible effects on people's strokes, but it's hard to believe that is the case here. This has to be a conscious decision he is making to play this way I assume.

In Freddy the Beards book he talks about how Efren first learned the game playing Freddy and Billy I. in Chicago. Freddy said Efren would learn at an incredible rate so Freddy would purposely act like he hated sending balls up table when he had the lead so Efren learned that flawed thinking early.. Billy I. would know better if that was the case or not.. It goes against sound one pocket knowledge and theory but meanwhile he is the best ever by a wide margin so go figure.. Its hard to argue with the results..:D Just imagine how good Efren would be if he had a clue about the game:eek::lol:lol:lol
 

onepockethacker

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Does Parica force the up table game? Another great is Rafael Martinez....never really see him force an up table game.

I never watched much of Parica however Rafael is the craziest son of a bitch you have ever seen play one pocket and also one of the most talented.
 

onepockethacker

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No doubt Efren is the greatest of all time, but every time I watch him play, he stays in aggression mode bringing balls back down table, even with a big lead. I wonder if forcing the up table game would mess with his creativity. In my mind he would be even better if he protected leads.....curious what input other people have about this, especially people who have played him 1 hole.

Let me just say this also.. Tons of people over the years have brought up Efrens lack of playing the score when he is ahead throughout his career.. So no doubt Im sure people have mentioned this to Efren over and over.. meanwhile the guy is a pool genius and even with countless people pointing out to him about playing the score he chooses not to, so to me it makes me think that he is on to something with the constantly applying pressure even when ahead... maybe the rest of us have been thinking wrong.. Because if you really think about it when the balls get up table like a foot off the rail or less Efren is the only guy who could consistently get behind the balls and run them and he also plays strong banks.. so sending up table would favor him even more... however he has dominated one pocket for so long playing the other strategy.. it is really fascinating.
 

wincardona

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Protecting leads has never been Efrens strength.. he always stays aggressive.. the funny thing is he won Derby City 4 years in a row races to 3 alternate break and reluctant to play the lead LOL unbelievable Billy I. would have a much better perspective on Efren than anyone.. hopefully he responds to this thread.

Firstly I would like to say that i'm happy that you're getting over your pout and posting again. :)

You were good kid, real good, but as long as I'm around, you'll always be second best. Deal with it.:heh :)

Reyes never had a mentor playing one pocket, nor did he have some one who he could model his game off of..coming from the Philippines. When he first started playing one pocket he didn't understand anything about playing the score, and with that understanding he developed his game by playing aggressively, using his advanced skills and creativity to play defense as opposed to playing conservatively sending balls up table and things of that nature. Reyes constantly applies pressure on his opponent by moving balls while playing a great cue ball, it's his confidence in his ability that has kept him playing the way he plays and it mostly lies in his cue ball.

Now that his shot is weakening, which happens to every one over time he will have to adjust some with his aggressiveness and learn to play more carefully, sending balls up table and possibly taking more intentionals, which he very seldom does. However, it's not going to be easy for Reyes to adjust to the more traditional way one pocket is normally played because he has such an understanding of the intricate part of the game, in regard to kicks, caroms, and other intricate shots that he recognizes and executes so beautifully, all along playing a great cue ball. Reyes is a beautiful player to watch play, and I don't ever want to watch him sending balls up table, or rolling to an intentional instead of clicking off another ball and so delicately dropping the cue ball to an inconspicuous area, that leaves us "head nodding" No. sending balls up table doesn't suit him and that's just one of the reasons he's "The Magician" Mr. Reyes.

Dr. Bill
 

koldcash

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Let me just say this also.. Tons of people over the years have brought up Efrens lack of playing the score when he is ahead throughout his career.. So no doubt Im sure people have mentioned this to Efren over and over.. meanwhile the guy is a pool genius and even with countless people pointing out to him about playing the score he chooses not to, so to me it makes me think that he is on to something with the constantly applying pressure even when ahead... maybe the rest of us have been thinking wrong.. Because if you really think about it when the balls get up table like a foot off the rail or less Efren is the only guy who could consistently get behind the balls and run them and he also plays strong banks.. so sending up table would favor him even more... however he has dominated one pocket for so long playing the other strategy.. it is really fascinating.

That's why I say it's a conscious decision he is making to play like this, whatever happened 30 years ago with Freddy and Billy, Efren is fully aware of the playing the score concept (all I keep thinking of is Efren with a big lead and a backer begging him to push em up table...Efren I got this 2 railer and spin my rock 2 rails...no worry's) But lets face it, in his prime I think he gave the world 9-7....makes me scratch my head....
 

koldcash

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Firstly I would like to say that i'm happy that you're getting over your pout and posting again. :)

You were good kid, real good, but as long as I'm around, you'll always be second best. Deal with it.:heh :)

Reyes never had a mentor playing one pocket, nor did he have some one who he could model his game off of..coming from the Philippines. When he first started playing one pocket he didn't understand anything about playing the score, and with that understanding he developed his game by playing aggressively, using his advanced skills and creativity to play defense as opposed to playing conservatively sending balls up table and things of that nature. Reyes constantly applies pressure on his opponent by moving balls while playing a great cue ball, it's his confidence in his ability that has kept him playing the way he plays and it mostly lies in his cue ball.

Now that his shot is weakening, which happens to every one over time he will have to adjust some with his aggressiveness and learn to play more carefully, sending balls up table and possibly taking more intentionals, which he very seldom does. However, it's not going to be easy for Reyes to adjust to the more traditional way one pocket is normally played because he has such an understanding of the intricate part of the game, in regard to kicks, caroms, and other intricate shots that he recognizes and executes so beautifully, all along playing a great cue ball. Reyes is a beautiful player to watch play, and I don't ever want to watch him sending balls up table, or rolling to an intentional instead of clicking off another ball and so delicately dropping the cue ball to an inconspicuous area, that leaves us "head nodding" No. sending balls up table doesn't suit him and that's just one of the reasons he's "The Magician" Mr. Reyes.

Dr. Bill

Great insight Dr. Bill , very interesting read. Thanks very much:)
 

onepockethacker

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Firstly I would like to say that i'm happy that you're getting over your pout and posting again. :)

You were good kid, real good, but as long as I'm around, you'll always be second best. Deal with it.:heh :)

Reyes never had a mentor playing one pocket, nor did he have some one who he could model his game off of..coming from the Philippines. When he first started playing one pocket he didn't understand anything about playing the score, and with that understanding he developed his game by playing aggressively, using his advanced skills and creativity to play defense as opposed to playing conservatively sending balls up table and things of that nature. Reyes constantly applies pressure on his opponent by moving balls while playing a great cue ball, it's his confidence in his ability that has kept him playing the way he plays and it mostly lies in his cue ball.

Now that his shot is weakening, which happens to every one over time he will have to adjust some with his aggressiveness and learn to play more carefully, sending balls up table and possibly taking more intentionals, which he very seldom does. However, it's not going to be easy for Reyes to adjust to the more traditional way one pocket is normally played because he has such an understanding of the intricate part of the game, in regard to kicks, caroms, and other intricate shots that he recognizes and executes so beautifully, all along playing a great cue ball. Reyes is a beautiful player to watch play, and I don't ever want to watch him sending balls up table, or rolling to an intentional instead of clicking off another ball and so delicately dropping the cue ball to an inconspicuous area, that leaves us "head nodding" No. sending balls up table doesn't suit him and that's just one of the reasons he's "The Magician" Mr. Reyes.

Dr. Bill

O.K. LANCY LOL one of my all time favorite movies.. maybe your one pocket strategy mirrors his poker stategy...... " that's what the games all about.. making the WRONG move at the right time" LOL How much of his one pocket foundation did Efren learn from you and Freddy? just curious
 

onepockethacker

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Billy.. Share with everyone the story you told me about efren and you in the practice room at the U.S. Open.. when you were reading your newspaper and nobody else was in the room.. I think the members will love the story and also give them a better understanding of why Efren does and is able to stay so aggressive at all times..
 

LSJohn

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Firstly I would like to say that i'm happy that you're getting over your pout and posting again. :)

You were good kid, real good, but as long as I'm around, you'll always be second best. Deal with it.:heh :)

Reyes never had a mentor playing one pocket, nor did he have some one who he could model his game off of..coming from the Philippines. When he first started playing one pocket he didn't understand anything about playing the score, and with that understanding he developed his game by playing aggressively, using his advanced skills and creativity to play defense as opposed to playing conservatively sending balls up table and things of that nature. Reyes constantly applies pressure on his opponent by moving balls while playing a great cue ball, it's his confidence in his ability that has kept him playing the way he plays and it mostly lies in his cue ball.

Now that his shot is weakening, which happens to every one over time he will have to adjust some with his aggressiveness and learn to play more carefully, sending balls up table and possibly taking more intentionals, which he very seldom does. However, it's not going to be easy for Reyes to adjust to the more traditional way one pocket is normally played because he has such an understanding of the intricate part of the game, in regard to kicks, caroms, and other intricate shots that he recognizes and executes so beautifully, all along playing a great cue ball. Reyes is a beautiful player to watch play, and I don't ever want to watch him sending balls up table, or rolling to an intentional instead of clicking off another ball and so delicately dropping the cue ball to an inconspicuous area, that leaves us "head nodding" No. sending balls up table doesn't suit him and that's just one of the reasons he's "The Magician" Mr. Reyes.

Dr. Bill

It's reasonable to speculate that he would be even better if he put more emphasis on protecting his leads, but I think you're right.

He's played thousands of games and seen games played well by other top players AND I understand that he's a very good chess player. Putting that all together, it seems to me that for any of us mortals to question his judgment would be a mistake.

I suspect that part of his thinking is that it's worth a lot to keep in opponent's mind that he's liable to shoot at -- and make -- anything.

It will be interesting to see whether he decides he now has to adjust.
 

straightback

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Efren plays that way because he has never been forced to play conservatively. Efren only sometimes gets things done with his brain in one pocket; it's typically more brawn and shotmaking. Considering his penchant for chess and other supposed cerebral activities, it's a wonder he plays like he does. It is extremely interesting to watch but not necessarily the smartest style in my view. Like some have said, why not play the score? Why bring balls back into play if you have 6 or 7? Considering he learned in Chicago, you would have thougbt he would have absorbed this lesson. I put him up there with Martinez in that he is supremely watchable but will often be overaggressive and, paradoxically, will ditch a decent posture because he is unsure of what to do.

However, because of his otherworldly skill set (including proficiency in three-cushion and his speed and CB control), his lack of classical strategy often makes for amazing unconventional shot choices that surprised even folks like Grady, the Beard and our own Incardona.

As far as spectating, I agree with Bill - don't change a thing!
 
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Cary

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Has anyone considered that when your offense is good enough it becomes your defense? Marciano and Jack Dempsey come to mind.
 

keoneyo

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Observing Efren not only in action but in practice I came to the conclusion that Efren bases a lot of his choices that come from Rotation as played in the Phillipines. In practice Efren does not practice banks or one pocket moves but he plays immeasurable hours of rotation where he is required to hit a particular object ball whether playing safe or not. His main focus is not putting balls out of play or cluttering up balls to make them unplayable but to open up the field and containing at the same time. Or running out.
This is where he really excels.

Recently I watched him play a grueling set for 8 hours in Santa Monica. He barely came out 1 set on the plus side. He was shooting lots of shots that for a normal one pocket player is inadvisable. In the past he would of course succeed in the complex aggressive shot he was planning but now he is just not hitting or seeing them as he used to. He will I believe have to rethink some shots. And I also believe he is making that adjustment. Had he played a tighter game the results would have been much different I believe.
The toughest thing about Efren is his stamina. If you beat him one game you are giving it your all that if you continue you still feel you are in the dentists chair. While he just continues on his way. Check out the match on Accustats recent Make it Happen with Danny Smith. Smith wins the first time but I believe in doing so it took all the winds in his sail to do it and after that Smith no longer can perform as well as he was in the earlier matches. I hope for our sakes Efren can continue to keep it going.
 

jrhendy

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Efren

Efren

I have only played Efren in tournaments, but like most here have sweated his matches many, many times. If you won more for shutouts, he would pitch them.

In my experience, and I hope others comment on this, he does not like to embarrass the other player. When the game/session is well in hand, he will ease up a bit or shoot a low percentage creative shot, something he seems to enjoy

I am not suggesting he does not have a killer instinct, his record speaks for itself, but we don't always see the best he has to offer until he needs it.
 

baby huey

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It is hard sometimes to really rate Efren's game and I think that is because of his age and loss of some offense. I have played him and he is unbelievable around the stack. He jams you up constantly and you are shooting over balls kicking at balls in his pocket. But, when the balls go up table and the score is close, I think this is when he is most vulnerable to a loss. Actually a lot of good players can hang in there with great players when the balls are up table better than any other time in the game. This is because it's mostly a bank to your hole and snooker game. A lot of great players never get to this stage of the game because they already won the damm game and they are kind of playing something that is foreign to them. Us weaker players play this type of game more often and are used to the nuances of of the up table game. Regardless, I'll take Efren on a one game situation for all the cheese. He just keeps coming up with great shots that we mortals never will think about.
 

keoneyo

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It is hard sometimes to really rate Efren's game and I think that is because of his age and loss of some offense. I have played him and he is unbelievable around the stack. He jams you up constantly and you are shooting over balls kicking at balls in his pocket. But, when the balls go up table and the score is close, I think this is when he is most vulnerable to a loss. Actually a lot of good players can hang in there with great players when the balls are up table better than any other time in the game. This is because it's mostly a bank to your hole and snooker game. A lot of great players never get to this stage of the game because they already won the damm game and they are kind of playing something that is foreign to them. Us weaker players play this type of game more often and are used to the nuances of of the up table game. Regardless, I'll take Efren on a one game situation for all the cheese. He just keeps coming up with great shots that we mortals never will think about.

The thing is what we consider balls out of play is not so for Efren. I have seen him run more balls from the kitchen than anyone else. So for generally skilled players our oop is still party time for the Magician.
 

Fast Lenny

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I never watched much of Parica however Rafael is the craziest son of a bitch you have ever seen play one pocket and also one of the most talented.

I have to agree on this, he is a dangerous player because you don't know what he will come up with and do. Have seen him play some amazing shots and look like a genius and shoot some shots that had you perplexed thinking this guy is off the air. :lol
 
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