Tight pockets vs. Loose

Tom Wirth

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
2,972
From
Delray Beach, Florida
I started a conversation with Joey A. ( a great guy and I hope I have the opportunity to commentate a match with him again ) while doing commentary on one of the matches at Lacy's. I asked him; Do you feel tight pockets favor the shooter or do they favor the mover? We had a vigorous discussion and I would like to know what you think about this topic.

It is my contention that tight pockets favor the shooter. I explained my reasoning then and in this thread I will share it again after I have heard yours. Please don't simply offer an opinion without explaining your conclusion. It's the "why" that I will find interesting. Maybe you can convince me to change my mind, but I doubt it.

Thanks,

Tom
 

cincy_kid

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
7,794
From
Cincinnati, OH
In my opinion, tight pockets favor the mover. The reason I feel this is way is because with tighter pockets you are going to have more misses. It doesn't matter if the player is a good shooter or a poor one, he will miss more with tighter pockets.

Now, when you know there will be more misses by both players, it opens up an advantage for the player who moves the balls better, towards their hole and gets the first opportunity to shoot at their hole.

If the pockets were loose, the better shooter is going to run out a majority of the time but when they are tight, not so much, therefore giving the advantage to the tactician who is setting up the table to their advantage.

my 2 cents...
 

jrhendy

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
5,717
From
Placerville, CA
I started a conversation with Joey A. ( a great guy and I hope I have the opportunity to commentate a match with him again ) while doing commentary on one of the matches at Lacy's. I asked him; Do you feel tight pockets favor the shooter or do they favor the mover? We had a vigorous discussion and I would like to know what you think about this topic.

It is my contention that tight pockets favor the shooter. I explained my reasoning then and in this thread I will share it again after I have heard yours. Please don't simply offer an opinion without explaining your conclusion. It's the "why" that I will find interesting. Maybe you can convince me to change my mind, but I doubt it.

Thanks,

Tom

I believe there is a slight edge to the mover because you may have an opportunity to 'gather' balls near your pocket while sending the cue ball down table because the shooter is less likely to fire at his hole on tight pockets with easy shots near his opponents pocket if he misses. You also should outmove him around the stack and get the first offensive shot at your pocket.

This turns the shooter into more of a mover which is not his strength. If you can turn a shooter into a wannabe mover, you should have the best of it.
 

DickP

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
121
From
San Antonio, TX
It seems like tight pockets make it easier for both players to find a safe harbor for the cue ball - far easier to leave yourself safe when no shot at distance is a sure thing...
I think a "mover"s skills are not at a premium with tight pockets. Isn't it a distinguishing trait of "movers" that they put a premium on keeping pressure on their pocket and hiding the cueball? If so, the tighter the pocket, the harder to maintain effective threats near it, and the easier to get out of traps.
 

jtompilot

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
5,797
From
New Orleans
I started a conversation with Joey A. ( a great guy and I hope I have the opportunity to commentate a match with him again ) while doing commentary on one of the matches at Lacy's. I asked him; Do you feel tight pockets favor the shooter or do they favor the mover? We had a vigorous discussion and I would like to know what you think about this topic.

It is my contention that tight pockets favor the shooter. I explained my reasoning then and in this thread I will share it again after I have heard yours. Please don't simply offer an opinion without explaining your conclusion. It's the "why" that I will find interesting. Maybe you can convince me to change my mind, but I doubt it.

Thanks,

Tom

Joey asked me about that after your conversation. I would rather play a champion on a tight pocket table and here's my reasoning.

Let's look at 9 ball or straight pool. The champions can run rack after rack after rack and never miss on a 5" pocket. Mr. 400 won't run 50 balls on a 4 1/8 pocket table. I've played lots of players much better than me and they will go for their hole on that tight table and miss more often than normal. That has given many chances that I would not normally have. I refuse to play a champion or straight shooter on anything larger than 4 1/2" pockets.
 

Tom Wirth

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
2,972
From
Delray Beach, Florida
These are all good points to consider. Please keep them coming. I would like to here opinions from some of you who consider yourselves more of a shooter.

Do you feel you have a better chance against movers when playing on loose tables?

Tom
 

TomRoden

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
180
I'm with the majority.

I'm with the majority.

I think the tighter pockets would benefit the mover. To echo a few members, moving balls to your zone is invaluable. Great question.
Tom, we have a friend in common,Nick Bewley. I've known Nicky since he was 12.
 

beatle

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
3,572
it is the fast cloth that has changed things not the pockets. with super fast cloth you can get position too easily. that hurts the weaker player and the thinking player as the great shooters get out so easily.

tight pockets ruined the game for me as i always believed part of the game was cheating the pocket to get position and that took a whole different skill to use it effectively.

all that said i would rather play a great player getting a spot from him with either very tight pockets or very loose pockets not in between. as with the tight pockets i get extra shots to win. and with the super easy ones i can get out almost as easy as him.


as far as nine ball goes tight pockets make the top players unbeatable.
 

1pwannabe

Verified Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2015
Messages
887
There may be a psychological advantage for the shooter that helps with the confidence game that's critical to winning. If the mover outmoves the shooter, gets a chance to shoot at his hole, and then hangs it most of the time, that might take a toll on his mental game.

Whereas the shooter isn't too fazed because they still make the ball most of the time, and they get position more often to get a few balls at a time. When I watched Shannon Daulton shoot on that insanely tight $ table at the Derby, he made it look easy and rarely missed. All the other regular guys that played on that table struggled far more and over time they missed more and more.
 

Frank Almanza

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
2,569
From
Upland, California
Tight pockets take away a good portion of the game away form the shooter.
There are many situations where you can advance a ball toward your hole and leave your opponent at the other end of the table even though you're giving up a shot to his hole but with a bit of distance. We do this a lot when we can position a ball near our hole. You're giving up a shot that has no position for him if he pockets that ball but costly if he misses it. He's playing for one ball, and if he makes it he hopes to advance another ball or maybe playing to bank another one.

A good ball striker will reconsider shooting at these types of balls with tight pockets but with bigger pockets he will take his chances. Situation like this gives the mover an extra chance for offensive to his hole.

At our monthly tournament at the Hard Times in Bellflower the feature table has very tight pockets and I find myself feeling comfortable in leaving those types of long shots to good shooters. I'm talking about the type of shots that will sell out a lot if missed. Even good shooters like Santos Sambajon, who is as good as they come in regards to pocketing balls, will shy away from many of these shots. So in this respect I say that tight pockets move the edge over slightly to the mover.
 

FrenchAT

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2016
Messages
151
From
Augusta, Georgia
In my opinion, tight pockets favor the mover. The reason I feel this is way is because with tighter pockets you are going to have more misses. It doesn't matter if the player is a good shooter or a poor one, he will miss more with tighter pockets.

Now, when you know there will be more misses by both players, it opens up an advantage for the player who moves the balls better, towards their hole and gets the first opportunity to shoot at their hole.

If the pockets were loose, the better shooter is going to run out a majority of the time but when they are tight, not so much, therefore giving the advantage to the tactician who is setting up the table to their advantage.

my 2 cents...
I'm with Cincy on this one. Even if the opponent is a better shooter, there will be shots he/she will not fire at on a tight table that he/she would on a regulation table. This forces someone who is more aggressive to employ more moves and defensive shots than they are accustomed to. A shooter normally doesnt shoot as many two-way shots as a mover because he/she expects to make the ball. A mover is almost always shooting both offensive and defensive position. Therefor a shooter is more likely to sell out when shooting and on average is going to miss more shots on a tight table. This gives the mover more opportunities per game. So, either the shooter tightens up and attempts to beat the mover at his own game or they fire away and have more misses and give up more opportunities. Thats just my 2 cents.
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,806
From
baton rouge, la
I don't think the shooter is necessarily the most accurate shooter - but he will be the bolder shooter. The mover will usually wait for, and shoot, the closer and easier shots. The tighter the pockets, the bigger his edge becomes. :rolleyes:
 

FrenchAT

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2016
Messages
151
From
Augusta, Georgia
it is the fast cloth that has changed things not the pockets. with super fast cloth you can get position too easily. that hurts the weaker player and the thinking player as the great shooters get out so easily.

tight pockets ruined the game for me as i always believed part of the game was cheating the pocket to get position and that took a whole different skill to use it effectively.

all that said i would rather play a great player getting a spot from him with either very tight pockets or very loose pockets not in between. as with the tight pockets i get extra shots to win. and with the super easy ones i can get out almost as easy as him.


as far as nine ball goes tight pockets make the top players unbeatable.

I agree that cheating the pocket is part of the movement game but its not just the felt and the size of the pocket. Some of today's tables have deeper shelves that cause balls to hang that would not normally. Had a table everyone swore had tighter pockets because it hung so many balls as compared to another place we played. I measured them one day to the exact same size as the other table. However, the shelf was about a half an inch deeper. It all matters. lol
 

Tom Wirth

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
2,972
From
Delray Beach, Florida
Many of the points which have been brought up here focus on how tighter pockets lessen the shooter's ability to pocket balls, but doesn't this also affect the mover's ability to do the same?

Frank, you point out how you might lag a straight back toward your hole and leave a long straight in shot to your straight shooting opponent knowing that if he shoots at it, he can score only one ball. Isn't this is a strategy shooters will also be aware of and employ? I'm not talking about shooters who are entirely ignorant of the game but even if I were, logic tells us that these shooters will still pocket balls on tight tables better the fellow that relies on his moving skills. Just because the mover thinks out the game better than the shooter does not mean the shooter plays recklessly or stupidly on all occasions. And guys, who do you think in long sessions will improve their game quicker? If the shooter's IQ is anything above double digits, his shooting skills will remain strong while progressively learning the various traps and using them against his opponent. Conversely, the mover's shooting skills will not change with anywhere near the same speed.

A shooter's ball pocketing skills will certainly be adversely affected the tighter the pockets but he will still pocket balls better than the mover won't he? And what happens when the mover is placed in a position where his best option is to shoot at his hole a "must make" shot where the safety is more difficult? Wouldn't you rather be the guy with the shooting skills in that situation? Even shooters can set traps!

It was pointed out that Mr. 400 won't be running many balls on a table with 4 1/4 inch pockets and this is true, but if you look at the other side to that coin if the pockets are now 5 inches in width, isn't it true that a player who on average can run only 4 or 5 balls on tight equipment should now be able to run eight balls nearly as well as the shooter? Wouldn't this neutralize much of the shooter's advantage while doing little to affect the mover's ability to set traps?

This is why I lean towards the belief that the mover will fare better on looser equipment than he will on very tight tables. I welcome your responses and I'm still open to arguments on the other side.

Thanks,

Tom
 
Last edited:

Cory in dc

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2012
Messages
1,657
Sorry Larry but trying to read Artie's post is like trying to read hieroglyphics. I need a cipher and an asprin. lol

I think Artie is mostly saying that non-movers can sometimes escape by firing at unwise shots and making them. He wants tight pockets to minimize that.

There's some logic to that. I think that's why I'd usually prefer getting 10-6 to getting 12-7 against a very strong player.

On the other hand, tight pockets can create safety zones uptable that wouldn't exist on a looser table. Those extra safety zones make it easier for a mediocre mover to escape traps.

Cory
 

darmoose

Verified Member
Joined
May 16, 2012
Messages
2,420
From
Baltimore, MD
shutinaturholeisOVERATED

shutinaturholeisOVERATED

I obviously agree with the majority on this question. I am not a great shooter, but I am a pretty good mover. I know from experience that I have a better chance playing a good shooter on tight pockets. My experience is that many good shooters, if choked for awhile, lose confidence, lose stroke, etc, and when they do get to shoot are less likely to be successful. Tighter pockets can only enhance this phenomenon.

Its about getting to the shot first, and the mover should have the edge in this. But when the shooter gets there first, I don't want him going eight and out. I want him having to beat me to the shot 3 or 4 times to win.

Admittedly, my game relies heavily on defense and moving (growing up in Chicago), enough so that a few pretty good players don't even wanna wrestle, ask Mitch.:D They complain they don't get enough shots, the games take too long. I reply shoot at your hole more, it'll go faster I promise (they don't wanna). Tighter pockets are a movers friend.

Tom makes the point that a shooter will develop into more of a mover, before a mover will develop better shooting skills. I don't know about you, but that's exactly what I look for. If I can get a shooter moving instead of shooting, I can't ask for anything more. He is not likely to become a great mover right in front of my eyes. And very few shooters can maintain great shooting while concentrating on moving.

I also believe that shooters tend to want to fire balls in, rather than shoot at pocket speed. Firing them in is much easier with bigger pockets.

Tighter pockets can help diminish a shooters confidence, I have no confidence at shooting, so pocket size don't matter.

JMHO
 
Last edited:

TomRoden

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
180
Artie said it all in one sentence.

Artie said it all in one sentence.

"Why would I want a weaker player shooting at easy pickets". That sums it up. Thanks Artie. As usual, great advice.
 

Tom Wirth

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2004
Messages
2,972
From
Delray Beach, Florida
"with tighter pockets you are going to have more misses". Cincy, this is not necessarily so. Maybe players will be more selective with their shot selections.

"If the pockets were loose, the better shooter is going to run out a majority of the time but when they are tight, not so much, therefore giving the advantage to the tactician who is setting up the table to their advantage." And what does that say about the guy who's shooting skills are weaker? Now the weaker shooter must benefit from more traps to win games whereas the shooter will always be a threat to run many balls. And who becomes the favorite when the game reaches a five five score and the balls go up table? Wouldn't the shooter become the favorite then?


" with the super easy ones i can get out almost as easy as him" Doesn't this help to neutralize the shooter's ball pocketing advantage?



There may be a psychological advantage for the shooter that helps with the confidence game that's critical to winning. If the mover outmoves the shooter, gets a chance to shoot at his hole, and then hangs it most of the time, that might take a toll on his mental game.

Whereas the shooter isn't too fazed because they still make the ball most of the time, and they get position more often to get a few balls at a time. /QUOTE] Hello!

a shooter is more likely to sell out when shooting and on average is going to miss more shots on a tight table. This gives the mover more opportunities per game. So, either the shooter tightens up and attempts to beat the mover at his own game or they fire away and have more misses and give up more opportunities. So what happens is the shooter is forced to play a more solid strategic game. Strong shooters shoot shots they know they will make. They possess great confidence and make necessary adjustments for the equipment they are playing on. They know and play within their capabilities. That is what makes them strong shooters!

Well, this is my opinion and I have heard nothing that has changed my mind. Call me stubborn but this opinion comes from nearly fifty years of experience playing players who's skill range from guys who shoot lights out and rely heavily on those skills to the players who rely equally as heavily on their moving skills. I can tell you that when playing those straight shooters I want to play them on loose equipment where my weaker shooting skills can match up well with theirs but my moving skills will out perform theirs.

Just my opinion of course but it has served me well so far.

Tom
 
Top