Buddy Hall vs. Gary Spaeth 2000 DCC: Exhibition Banks

WillieNilly

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Cowboy Dennis said:
It's game 4 and Gary needs two balls. What would you do?

View attachment 2736

I would cross bank the 14 down table, then the straight back on the 2.
seems like somthing reasonable to execute to try to get out. (for free/cheap)


from the players standpoint to me...needing 2,down 2 games to one....for payout.
i think gary would play safe, tie up the 2 balls in the corner ,rolling the qball down to the rail abouts. Gary is the better banker....he has a better chance of winning that skirmish if he feels the 14 wont easily fall and leaving buddy the 2 in the open if he misses.
this is also what i would do if i had decent stake on the outcome against a capable player.

do you think gary would shoot the 14 if he needed one instead of 2? would you?....i would. :)


edit...its a 2 ball...not an 8.
 
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fred bentivegna

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My first solution

My first solution

Percentages, percentages. Except Gary didnt often play the correct percentages, unlike his father Joey, who was tighter than Dick's hat band. Knowing Gary he shot all out on either the 2 or the 14, both poor choices. Now for those too fidgety to wait, or for those who just dont know any better, the best way to get two balls would be to cross bank the 14 straight back. With the 2 ball on the spot you would be assured of a good second shot no matter where the cue ball traveled to. Slamming and stiffening the 2 ball straight back results in having to shoot another straight back at the maximum, with the 14.

Playing safe by cutting the 2 ball and returning the q ball to the end rail is not the worst shot in the world, but it is really not a good choice for at least 2 reasons. Number 1. Needing two balls you dont want to put both balls near the foot short rail where your only options would be straight backs. Cross sides and cross corners are what get the money. Number 2. With both balls near the short rail you stand a good chance of leaving your oppo a straight back that might be a reasonably free shot. Very bad with him only needing one.

My choice. Crossing over the face of the two and rolling to the short rail where you leave nothing if you miss it and you can play a safe if you make it.
The shot goes, but does require an exceptional hit and maybe some english.

Knowing Gary, I am sure he didnt do what I suggested. Gary and I met in the finals of a pretty prestigious bank tourn, with most of the top bankers in the country. The only one missing was Bugs. He was spending the night in jail. It was a race in balls, the first 23 out of 45 balls, full rack. The score was 21 to 21 when I left him froze on the back rail with nothing to shoot at but a give-up straight back. I figured he would go for it and sell out. He did. He slammed at it 100mph missed it badly and the cue ball somehow buried itself inside 2 other balls! I had absolutely no safety. Even taking a table scratch wouldnt work because we were playing 3 in a row lose the game and I would have had to come out from those balls at some point anyway and there were balls loose everywhere else on the table. I finally came out and left him as bad as I could but he was happy to still be alive and ran the last two and out.


Beard

Final note. I still havent heard a single comment in the 13 months that I have had a bank pool column in Inside Pool. Does anybody on this forum read Inside Pool? Is everybody that afraid of drawing a negative reaction from the Phoenix Spell Master?
 
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lll

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since im a 1p player not a bank pool player id think id shoot this first and the straight back next
ll6.jpg
 

blackeee

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Cowboy Dennis said:
It's game 4 and Gary needs two balls. What would you do?

View attachment 2736

Since its an exhibition, I'd bank the stripe staight back if it would go. If not I'd bank the spot ball into the stripe sendng snow down table. Gary probably fired the 2 straight back!
 

fred bentivegna

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Absolute strategy

Absolute strategy

lll said:
since im a 1p player not a bank pool player id think id shoot this first and the straight back next
View attachment 2740

The situation is, you need both balls: A bank pool axiom is that you never try and hang a ball in either of the two, foot-spot front corner pockets when you need all the balls! Because: The worst situation you can be in, is to need all the balls but have one of them hanging in a front corner pocket. You cant win without making that ball in the pocket, spotting it up and giving your oppo the first shot at the money. However, hanging a ball in the back corner pocket is fine when you need them all, because you can always roll it in the pocket, spot up the ball six 1/2 feet away and leave your oppo on the back cushion.

You would all do well to burn this into your brain, because it is absolute, unshakable, eternal bank pool strategy, and you wont find it in any DVD or book.

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Straight back?

Straight back?

newfosgatesucks said:
Cut-back the one on the spot. It's gonna be in the pocket or in the jaws.

If you are talking about straight back to where you started with the cue ball, the angle is much too extreme to be able to control the cue ball. If you are talking about cross corner, then that is no good for the reasons I cited to lll (Larry).

Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Check reason Number 1

Check reason Number 1

blackeee said:
Since its an exhibition, I'd bank the stripe staight back if it would go. If not I'd bank the spot ball into the stripe sendng snow down table. Gary probably fired the 2 straight back!

Blackee, that is not a solid choice for the reasons I outlined in my post #3, and reason Number 1. Accumulating balls on the front short rail when you need them all is counter-productive.

Beard

Still waiting to hear from somebody who reads Inside Pool. Circulation of 400,000 and none of them on Onepocket.org?
 

lll

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fred bentivegna said:
The situation is, you need both balls: A bank pool axiom is that you never try and hang a ball in either of the two, foot-spot front corner pockets when you need all the balls! Because: The worst situation you can be in, is to need all the balls but have one of them hanging in a front corner pocket. You cant win without making that ball in the pocket, spotting it up and giving your oppo the first shot at the money. However, hanging a ball in the back corner pocket is fine when you need them all, because you can always roll it in the pocket, spot up the ball six 1/2 feet away and leave your oppo on the back cushion.

You would all do well to burn this into your brain, because it is absolute, unshakable, eternal bank pool strategy, and you wont find it in any DVD or book.

Beard
this post goes into the favorites to keep:)
thanks.
p.s. i logged into inside pool
is there an idex of articles from past issues somewhere??
 

fred bentivegna

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Past issues...

Past issues...

lll said:
this post goes into the favorites to keep:)
thanks.
p.s. i logged into inside pool
is there an idex of articles from past issues somewhere??

I think you have to join up some kind of way, or take out a subscription. That's how they do it for Pool and Billiard Mag.

Beard
 

gulfportdoc

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fred bentivegna said:
I still havent heard a single comment in the 13 months that I have had a bank pool column in Inside Pool. Does anybody on this forum read Inside Pool?
Fred, I went to the online version, but couldn't find your articles. Perhaps they're included only in the subscription or paper forms.

Great advice re keeping the balls away from the foot corners!

Doc
 

fred bentivegna

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Whatja think?

Whatja think?

gulfportdoc said:
Fred, I went to the online version, but couldn't find your articles. Perhaps they're included only in the subscription or paper forms.

Great advice re keeping the balls away from the foot corners!

Doc

Didja think they were going to give all the good stuff away for free? I only give it away for free on Onepocket.org.

Beard

With you and lll, Inside Pool is now up to 400,002 viewers
 

Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
Percentages, percentages. Except Gary didnt often play the correct percentages, unlike his father Joey, who was tighter than Dick's hat band. Knowing Gary he shot all out on either the 2 or the 14, both poor choices........ Slamming and stiffening the 2 ball straight back results in having to shoot another straight back at the maximum, with the 14.

Beard
Well that's what Gary shot and it worked out well for him. Definitely the wrong shot for money but it sure was pretty:) .

GS #1.jpg

GS #2.jpg
 

cuesmith

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fred bentivegna said:
Percentages, percentages. Except Gary didnt often play the correct percentages, unlike his father Joey, who was tighter than Dick's hat band. Knowing Gary he shot all out on either the 2 or the 14, both poor choices. Now for those too fidgety to wait, or for those who just dont know any better, the best way to get two balls would be to cross bank the 14 straight back. With the 2 ball on the spot you would be assured of a good second shot no matter where the cue ball traveled to. Slamming and stiffening the 2 ball straight back results in having to shoot another straight back at the maximum, with the 14.

What most people didn't know about this bank demonstration was that Pat Fleming asked Gary to do a bank exhibition match for him. Gary said "sure". Pat asked him if he thought Buddy would be a good player to do the exhibition with him. Gary said "well

Buddy is a great banker, but he doesn't really play great bank pool. It might be interesting because our styles are completely different". Buddy rolls a lot of banks that most bank pool players would play with speed. When the players met up at the Accu-

Stats arena Buddy asked Pat what they were getting paid for doing the exhibition. Pat told him they would receive their normal percentage from the DVD sales. Buddy felt like he should get at least a grand up front and almost left without playing. Finally

he said to Gary, "OK lets get this over with, but no safeties. Play for a bank every shot." Kind of like an "honest effort" ring game. Gary didn't like the idea but went along with Buddy! The first few games Gary played that way but it became more and more

obvious that Buddy didn't want to lose and was playing a safe game of banks. Gary even said something to him at one point when he played a very obvious safety and from then on Gary played a lot tighter and came from behind to beat Buddy in the

exhibition, which Buddy didn't like one bit! Several years before that exhibition Gary had to play buddy in the finals of a bank pool tournament in Lexington. Buddy had just won the accompanying nine ball tournament winning about 10K. Gary was in the

"Hot Seat" position and Buddy had to beat him twice to win. The Bank pool division was only worth $2500 and I was staking Gary. Before they got started, Buddy said to Gary "lets just chop this". Gary said "I don't think so but I'll talk to my stake horse"

and he came to me and asked how I felt about it. I told him, "Hell no! He can't beat you one set, much less twice. Just go out there beat him good!" Well, when He told Buddy that we didn't want to chop it, Buddy said "I see, the greed comes out in all of

us." That really fired Gary up and he beat Buddy 4-1 the first and only set! And Freddy, I think you're a little off on that story about the Chicago tourney where Gary beat you. I believe you were tied up at about 16 or 17 but I don't remember you scoring

much past that. And do you think Gary just got lucky and put you in that trap? Really? You played well in that tourney but what you did best was shark Gary when he was shooting! lol I know you call it "gamesmanship" but you took it to the limit! You are

right about the difference between Joey and Gary. Joey was a grinder and would keep you absolutely locked up until he had a chance to win. He had a lot more patience than Gary did, especially during Gary's younger days. The sad thing is that Gary was

actually playing his best when he passed away. He had learned some of the patience his father had and still had the "fire power". If he was still alive I have no doubt that he would be considered on of the best all round players in the world. He was

constantly getting better and better. If anyone doubts that let them ask Shannon Daulton. He knew how good Gary played all games except 14.1 which he found too boring to keep his attention. He even dabbled at 3C and beat some pretty good players.

No one could beat him in Cincinnati at any game for over 20 years. Very few "road agents even stopped in Cincinnati and the smart ones that did left Gary alone.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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cuesmith said:
And Freddy, I think you're a little off on that story about the Chicago tourney where Gary beat you. I believe you were tied up at about 16 or 17 but I don't remember you scoring much past that. And do you think Gary just got lucky and put you in that trap? Really? You played well in that tourney but what you did best was shark Gary when he was shooting! lol I know you call it "gamesmanship" but you took it to the limit!
cuesmith,

You must certainly be wrong about Freddy sharking Gary, mentally tough players NEVER feel a need to shark anybody, they are confident in their abilities and knowledge.

Dennis
 

fred bentivegna

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Your memory is the one that is off.

Your memory is the one that is off.

... And Freddy, I think you're a little off on that story about the Chicago tourney where Gary beat you. I believe you were tied up at about 16 or 17 but I don't remember you scoring

much past that. And do you think Gary just got lucky and put you in that trap? Really? You played well in that tourney but what you did best was shark Gary when he was shooting! lol I know you call it "gamesmanship" but you took it to the limit! ...
[/QUOTE]


Sherm, I remember exactly most of what happened in that tourn.
I certainly cannot dispute your claim of me sharking. I dont remember doing anything as overt as you say, but that type of gamesmanship was certainly not out of my wheelhouse.
Did you remember that I beat Donnie Anderson 23 to 4 to get into the finals with Gary? Donnie had beaten me the first match I played and I came up all the way thru the losers bracket.
The score was 21 all and Gary was on the back rail and he swung at a straight back. He missed and the cue ball somehow wedged in between two balls and I had to shoot the cue ball out of there and he ran 2 and out. One of the shots was a long cross corner. I dont remember if that was the game ball or not. I have been telling this story this way for 20 years and this is the first objection. I dont know who the hell else to ask about that. Most of the guys that were there are now dead.

And yes, he did get lucky to put me in that death trap. He certainly wasnt trying to freeze me between two balls from 7 ft away. You must think I am trying to take something away from Gary. You are wrong. Gary played better than me then, but I was in a real zone that day, as was he, and neither one of us was going to miss anything. What upset me was that I didnt get a chance to win from that spot. I knew whomever got the first shot was going to take it down.

Beard

As an aside, and for the record, the previous post to this is the 14th straight personal attack on me by Cueboy D since early march -- all without a single reply by me, up to now.

I can look up old posts just like anybody else. Anybody goofy enough to be interested in them, just ask. I have them all copied into a file.
 
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Cowboy Dennis

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fred bentivegna said:
As an aside, and for the record, the previous post to this is the 14th straight personal attack on me by Cueboy D since early march -- all without a single reply by me, up to now.

I can look up old posts just like anybody else. Anybody goofy enough to be interested in them, just ask. I have them all copied into a file.
Freddy,

I certainly don't mean to be taken as being "personal" but when you go berserk at any real or imagined "attack" on you or yours what else can I expect?

You are the one who got pissy when I pointed out that you didn't exactly possess the traits of "mentally tough" players and I only did that because you poked fun at my thread. Yes, I can also find it and post it but I'm not goofy enough to have it copied in a file. It's not that important to me.

You are the one who has other people speak for him. Why does Bozoman have to speak for you? Speak for yourself, it would be a welcome relief. Find one post since I joined this site where I asked someone to speak for me and I'll give you $10,000. You Chicago boys do it regularly.

Would you now claim that "sharking" is a trait that "mentally tough" players possess? I never sharked anyone who didn't shark me first. I don't play that shit. Guys who shark are mentally weak and easily sharked in return when the opportunity presents.

I played Cornbread for 20-25 years and he never sharked me one time except by beating me and I returned the favor many times. Richie Richeson and JR Gay never sharked me. Porky (Norm Wines) never sharked me. Ricky Gracyk didn't shark me.

The players who don't & didn't shark always stand out to me. I would usually quit any player who made a habit of sharking, I just don't have the patience for that crap.

People who shark are losers who can't figure out any other way to win, that's the only way to look at it, for me anyway.

Dennis
 

cuesmith

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fred bentivegna said:
... And Freddy, I think you're a little off on that story about the Chicago tourney where Gary beat you. I believe you were tied up at about 16 or 17 but I don't remember you scoring

much past that. And do you think Gary just got lucky and put you in that trap? Really? You played well in that tourney but what you did best was shark Gary when he was shooting! lol I know you call it "gamesmanship" but you took it to the limit! ...


Sherm, I remember exactly most of what happened in that tourn.
I certainly cannot dispute your claim of me sharking. I dont remember doing anything as overt as you say, but that type of gamesmanship was certainly not out of my wheelhouse.
Did you remember that I beat Donnie Anderson 23 to 4 to get into the finals with Gary? Donnie had beaten me the first match I played and I came up all the way thru the losers bracket.
The score was 21 all and Gary was on the back rail and he swung at a straight back. He missed and the cue ball somehow wedged in between two balls and I had to shoot the cue ball out of there and he ran 2 and out. One of the shots was a long cross corner. I dont remember if that was the game ball or not. I have been telling this story this way for 20 years and this is the first objection. I dont know who the hell else to ask about that. Most of the guys that were there are now dead.

And yes, he did get lucky to put me in that death trap. He certainly wasnt trying to freeze me between two balls from 7 ft away. You must think I am trying to take something away from Gary. You are wrong. Gary played better than me then, but I was in a real zone that day, as was he, and neither one of us was going to miss anything. What upset me was that I didnt get a chance to win from that spot. I knew whomever got the first shot was going to take it down.

Beard

.[/QUOTE]

Freddy, First off let me explain something, I like you. I like your stories, your books & DVD's and most of all I like when you talk at the HOF Banquet at the Derby each year. I also really like your commentaries. You have a very amusing way of telling

stories and one-liners that make listening to you a lot of fun. I feel if we lived close and frequented the same poolrooms we'd probably be good friends. But I gotta stick up for my old road partner when I think he's taking the worse of a situation. I'm not

stalking you or trying to knock you, just sticking up for the guy who was besides being my road partner, he was my best friend. When he found out he had leukemia, it was me he came to and we both cried. I can still remember him saying "I'm too young

to die" and me telling him" don't worry about it, you've been in worse traps in the pool room and got away from it", but I was wrong. In the years after that tournament Gary and I went through a lot together and I can honestly say I've never had a better

friend. He matured a lot after that tournament and as I said in an earlier post his game matured a lot also. He was getting better all the time and playing smarter all the time. His cueball control was phenomenal, maybe even better than his banking ability.

That's why I think you could be wrong about that "death trap" as you put it. He put Shannon Daulton in a couple of those when he beat him 7-1 in the 9-ball at the Derby, 1999, his last year there. He had a winning record playing Buddy hall in both banks

and 9-ball tournaments. Bugs quit trying to play him banks and made a one pocket game with him spotting him a ball but never won at it even though he tried 3 different times. Bugs learned a lot of his one pocket game from Joey and Gary learned more

from Bugs than he did from Joey. I do remember you bar-b-cueing Donnie at that tournament. I didn't remember the score but I'll take your word for it. Frankly we expected it to be Gary and Donnie in the finals but you stopped that. The night before Gary

played Piggy and robbed him, giving him 8-7 and winning 9 straight games. Piggy told his stake horse when he pulled up "He can't beat me at this game, he's spell banking" His stake horse said " you know what, I believe you, problem is we don't know how

long this spell is going to last"! Didn't mean to get you stirred up Freddy, just wanted to stick up for my buddy!
 

androd

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Jersey Red and Danny Jones were playing a game of one pocket to see who got to pick the third team in a three team baseball parlay.
Danny asked "Sharking ?"
Red replied "Light sharking only "
Rod.:p :D
PS, Red lost !
Danny bet against Marichal ( REDS ALL TIME FAVORITE PITCHER )
PPS, Marichal won. :)
 
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