petie
Verified Member
I like this. I almost prefer missing it and leaving it hanging.
C. Bryant vs. S. Daulton 2006 D.C.C. #2
- Thread starter Cowboy Dennis
- Start date
I like this. I almost prefer missing it and leaving it hanging.
vapros
Verified Member
Good thread, good discussion, good answer from Dr. Bill. Thanks
petie
Verified Member
In order for Daulton to do what you say may be available, both the cue ball and the 5 ball will have to end up pretty much in a exact position for your shot to be available. Plus he must defend against the cross corner bank on the 9 ball.
If you would be kind enough to show the position you're talking about, I would like to discuss it further with you, and all that would be interested. But i'm sorry I can't visualize what position, or what type of positions you're afraid of, in regard to the return options off the 5 ball bank.
Keep in mind when i'm banking the 5 ball i'm dragging the cue ball across the top rail, staying as close to the top rail as possible. I figure to travel to around the diamond before the pocket with the shot (cue ball) really can't see what good options Daulton will have from there.The strength with the 5 ball bank option is controlling both the 5 ball and the cue ball, leaving the 5 ball as close to the pocket as possible while keeping the cue ball as close to the top rail as possible. Naturally you would like to travel as far west as you can with the cue ball, but the shot should not be compromised with only that thought in mind. Try to envision the cue ball ending up 6" to 10" to the left of the center diamond, from there what can Daulton do to Charlie to put him in trouble?
Dr. Bill
When I posted my last post, I hadn't seen the Doctor's shot which is very similar. I actually like placing the 5 very near the pocket. I too don't see the viability of Shannon's reply off the cluster. I hope he does go for that because he'd have to be lucky to not leave me a shot on the 5 or the 9.
wincardona
Verified Member
Playing one pocket there are going to be many times when we aren't going to be able to predict the future, because of all the uncertainties that could develop Understanding this we should then try to envision a plan, or strategy to put in effect that will offer us the best chance of winning, sometimes we win and sometimes we don't. But what we do do, is learn from the decisions that are made, and in the future use that experience to try to devise a better plan for situations that we are confronted with. But what we should try to avoid is that in situations where there are too many uncertainties that may follow a certain shot, don't think about what bad could happen, think about what the good things that could happen are. What you're doing here is trading off the negative thoughts that are burdening your thinking process, with positive thoughts that will aid you in winning.This position obviously favors Daulton, plus it's a very threatening position for Bryant. The way I see it the urgency is there to either challenge it (going up table)or trying to change it by either shooting the 14 ball or moving balls from his side, immediately. I like challenging it because you can win with this option, if executed well. Plus Daulton can't look to play aggressively from the position I put him in.
There's a certain amount of gamble in everything we do, and it holds true here, in this position as well. If you're looking for a guarantee you're not going to get one here, there's no iron clad solution to this problem Charlie has.
Dr. Bill
In this situation we really can't pin point where the 5 ball and cue ball will end up, but we should understand is that Daulton will be now defending a position, as opposed to developing a stronger one.
Dr. Bill
Skin
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Dr. Bill, of course I am not disputing what you've written. I just want to advocate a little more for my way of thinking in this situation. We haven't seen the play leading up to how Daulton left Hillbilly, but we can reasonably assume one of two things:
1) He is trying to bait Charlie into shooting at something or
2) He missed his intended leave
Either way, Daulton has made a mistake - a pretty rare event. Charlie is not likely to be the beneficiary of another anytime soon, so he must cowboy up here and punish Daulton. The best way to do that is to get on a decent run of balls, which he can do if he banks the 5 to make it. The only real iffy part of that shot is the speed to get over and down far enough to see the 14. Even if Charlie doesn't get there, he still ought to sink the 5 with the cb now uptable of all of Daulton's danger balls. From there he can really turn things around with a multiple-ball move. But IF he does get on the 14, it is off to the races - maybe 3, 4 or more additional balls.
I understand the strength of moving the 5 down and leaving Daulton shooting out of the top left corner, but boy does Bryant ever have a good chance at taking over and winning the game from where he is right now by shooting at his hole.
Now that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Skin
Cowboy Dennis
Verified Member
Bryant did cut the 14 in but did not get a next shot.
P.S. Co-commentator B. Hall said he would not shoot the 5 ball bank. He said there's nothing to shoot if you make it.
P.S. Co-commentator B. Hall said he would not shoot the 5 ball bank. He said there's nothing to shoot if you make it.
Skin
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wincardona
Verified Member
Did Buddy say what he would shoot instead of the 5 ball bank? Obviously if the 14 ball was a viable option I would of shot it too, my analysis was based off of the 14 ball not being a viable option. The reason the 14 ball was the best shot is because first, you get a good look at it being as close to it as you are, and secondly, it carries a big upside if you can pocket it.
I still like the bank on the 5 ball (if the 14 ball isn't a viable option) with the speed I suggested. And i'm sticking to it.
Dr. Bill
wincardona
Verified Member
Dr. Bill, of course I am not disputing what you've written. I just want to advocate a little more for my way of thinking in this situation. We haven't seen the play leading up to how Daulton left Hillbilly, but we can reasonably assume one of two things:
1) He is trying to bait Charlie into shooting at something or ( not likely )
2) He missed his intended leave ( quite possibly )
Either way, Daulton has made a mistake - a pretty rare event. Charlie is not likely to be the beneficiary of another anytime soon, so he must cowboy up here and punish Daulton. The best way to do that is to get on a decent run of balls, which he can do if he banks the 5 to make it. ( yes, if he feels he can make the bank and get position ) The only real iffy part of that shot is the speed to get over and down far enough to see the 14. ( not so, position looks difficult, and the bank isn't automatic )Even if Charlie doesn't get there, he still ought to sink the 5 with the cb now uptable of all of Daulton's danger balls. From there he can really turn things around with a multiple-ball move.( I don't understand anything you said after you said "even if he doesn't get there. ) But IF he does get on the 14, it is off to the races - maybe 3, 4 or more additional balls.( if he scores the 5 ball and ends up with position, he has earned at least 3 or 4 balls for his excellent play, but no guarantee to get them )
I understand the strength of moving the 5 down and leaving Daulton shooting out of the top left corner, but boy does Bryant ever have a good chance at taking over and winning the game from where he is right now by shooting at his hole. ( that all depends on how the shooter feels about his chances. )
Now that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Skin
We will never know if he would of shot your shot, or any other chosen shot because it never got to there, but let me explain why he may not of liked the bank playing position for the 14 ball. When playing a top player, regardless of who you are you must respect their offensive skills. By playing a 50% bank and leaving the cue ball in an area where your opponent has good options if you miss is disrespecting that players skills. Not only that but in this particular situation the bank is an easier task than coming up with the next shot is. So what you have here is a tough shot with the bank, plus a tougher challenge with getting position on the next shot. There are too many obstacles you need to avoid in order to get position on a bank that doesn't carry a natural angle for position.:frus:sorry This to me is a bad gamble, especially since you have options. Yes Buddy may have said that he wouldn't bank the 5 ball but was he referring to the option with cutting the 14 ball as opposed to shooting the bank? If so that's a valid reason to not shoot the bank, because you have a better shot with the 14 ball and it carries more potential should you pocket it. Considering the way the balls are positioned before Charlie shot his shot, banking the 5 ball and playing position on the 14 ball imo wasn't an option, exactly for the reasons I explained. There are things that you just don't do when playing a champion, especially if you have to go out of you're way to do them.
Dr. Bill
tylerdurden
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The reason I don't like that bryant shot is look how open shannon's side is now. I do understand these guys like to shoot and try to get out and this is why they are successful, but if he would have just kept pounding shannon into the upper left corner i think that would have been much better. I do think more in terms of moving balls though, and these guys think in terms of running out.
NH Steve
Administrator
I know Charlie already shot from here, but to go back to the 5-ball bank for a second... When I look at the 5-ball bank, to me it looks like if Charlie was to play it pocket speed, which is what pretty near all the 5-ball bank advocates are suggesting, then the left english needed to help spin the cue ball over to the left corner would probably make you miss the bank too. That's okay if all you are doing is playing the cue ball and placing the 5-ball in your own threat zone of course, but that means abandoning the idea of getting position to run some balls with the shot, imo. If you really are playing the 5 to make it, you would have to keep nearer the center axis of the cue ball, with the result that you would not drift that far to the left with your cue ball -- unless you whack it JB style
petie
Verified Member
I know Charlie already shot from here, but to go back to the 5-ball bank for a second... When I look at the 5-ball bank, to me it looks like if Charlie was to play it pocket speed, which is what pretty near all the 5-ball bank advocates are suggesting, then the left english needed to help spin the cue ball over to the left corner would probably make you miss the bank too. That's okay if all you are doing is playing the cue ball and placing the 5-ball in your own threat zone of course, but that means abandoning the idea of getting position to run some balls with the shot, imo. If you really are playing the 5 to make it, you would have to keep nearer the center axis of the cue ball, with the result that you would not drift that far to the left with your cue ball -- unless you whack it JB style
Steve, I'm glad you brought this up. Being one of those 5-ball bank advocates, this gives me the opportunity to dig into more detail of how I would shoot this shot. I would definitely shoot it pocket speed and overcut the bank so that you would have to use hold up english with stun draw. This gives you the CB movement to the left that you want but keeps you from going down table should the CB go as far left as the side rail. It also makes you decide whether you are planning to make the 5 or not. I say NOT. if you make it, you have only long, hard shots. If you do not make it, you have your oppo in a hard spot.
vapros
Verified Member
Sorry to keep picking the scab off this thing, but I have set this up and shot it a dozen times this morning, and I have to repeat - I don't want to see Shannon come to the table, shooting from the upper left corner. I really do not. I'm thinning the 10 ball and caroming into the 3 ball, and not hitting the 6 ball at all. Never had a single bad result. The cue ball went into Charlie's corner every time, but never scratched. If the five ball had been there, who knows? Absent the 9 ball, the 3 ball goes into my pocket, or stops in the jaws. I'm pretty sure Shannon could have hit it as well as I did.
I mentioned the possibility of going rail first, but if I had looked more closely I would have seen that this is not an option from the upper left corner.
How about some volunteers who have access to a table? Shoot it a few times and give us a report. Thanks.
I mentioned the possibility of going rail first, but if I had looked more closely I would have seen that this is not an option from the upper left corner.
How about some volunteers who have access to a table? Shoot it a few times and give us a report. Thanks.
petie
Verified Member
Vap, thanks for the good work. Are you shooting theshot from the upper left hand corner with the 9 ball where it is in the featured game and the five ball hangin or close to Charley's pocket? If not it isn't real.
vapros
Verified Member
Petie, the 9 ball is quite welcome to be in this pattern, and the position of the 5 ball is conjecture, of course, but it might well be protecting my cue ball from scratching. I would be happy to knock it in, if it works out that way.
Again, how about shooting the shot a few times and letting us know how it goes in your experience? That's how I got my evaluation of it. Thanks.
Again, how about shooting the shot a few times and letting us know how it goes in your experience? That's how I got my evaluation of it. Thanks.
wincardona
Verified Member
Vapros, the key to the 5 ball bank is in controlling the 5 ball, in terms of speed.
After setting this shot up and experimenting with it I have concluded that pinch drawing this shot, or soft drawing this shot is not right. The reason it's wrong is because the speed that the 5 ball will take in order to control the cue ball is too hard of a speed. The key to this shot is controlling the speed of the 5 ball, naturally if you would be able to control the cue ball in the area I suggested ( 1 dia. from pocket top rail ) It would be ideal. But that's not possible because of the distance between the cue ball and 5 ball. The better way of playing the bank is to med.soft roll it with a center ball 1/2 tip inside english narrowly missing the kiss. Yes this shot now becomes a more difficult hit, but the results you need , in terms of controlling the speed of the 5 ball will be there. I shot this shot several times without getting a kiss, and positioned the 5 ball well, every time. Not only that, but I came up with a shot on the 14 ball every time. Believe it or not, the cue ball will only travel a matter of inches after contact, if the shot is hit well.
Back to your point, As long as you can control the speed of the 5 ball, I wouldn't be overly concerned about Shannon doing anything aggressive. Imo he would be addressing the 5 ball in some way, at least 90% of the time.
By the way, the make percentage on this bank for me, the way I described the hit is about 35% of the time. I shot it 3 times and made the bank once, but every time I shot it I hit it with the all important speed needed.
Dr. Bill
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wincardona
Verified Member
You're correct with everything you have said, drawing the shot with the distance and angle this shot presents is not conducive in controlling both the 5 ball and the cue ball. I initially assumed that by looking at the shot from my computer screen that it could be done, and suggested the shot by the way it looked to me. But after I set up the shot and experimented with it I concluded that it was clearly the wrong way to play the bank,for the reasons I explained in the preceding post. Yes this shot must be executed with the way you described, by staying near the center axis of the cue ball 1/2 tip inside english, with a fuller hit. This method will enable you to both, control the speed of the 5 ball and also leave you with position on the 14 ball if you pocket the bank. Plus if you don't pocket the bank, Daulton must respond with a defensive move. Naturally this is based off of not using the 14 ball as an option.I know Charlie already shot from here, but to go back to the 5-ball bank for a second... When I look at the 5-ball bank, to me it looks like if Charlie was to play it pocket speed, which is what pretty near all the 5-ball bank advocates are suggesting, then the left english needed to help spin the cue ball over to the left corner would probably make you miss the bank too. That's okay if all you are doing is playing the cue ball and placing the 5-ball in your own threat zone of course, but that means abandoning the idea of getting position to run some balls with the shot, imo. If you really are playing the 5 to make it, you would have to keep nearer the center axis of the cue ball, with the result that you would not drift that far to the left with your cue ball -- unless you whack it JB style
Dr. Bill
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vapros
Verified Member
I am not commenting on the 5 ball bank at all. I refer back to post #11, which recommended banking the 5 and dragging the cue ball far enough to take advantage of the possible blockers. Assuming this has been done, my shot off the 10 and 3 balls is very workable from a fairly large area. I can send the cue ball toward Charlie's pocket, and it might be great or pretty bad, depending on where the cue ball contacts the 5. Either way, Shannon would deal with a problem cluster on his side, and the 9 ball might make it better, with a 3 ball tickie.
I'm just saying that before playing the 5 ball bank, one should try to see Shannon's options when he returns to the table, and offering my opinion about leaving him in the upper left corner. I would rather not put him there. I'm not being obstinate, or trying to sell anything to anyone. What might our other posters think he would do from the upper left corner?
I'm just saying that before playing the 5 ball bank, one should try to see Shannon's options when he returns to the table, and offering my opinion about leaving him in the upper left corner. I would rather not put him there. I'm not being obstinate, or trying to sell anything to anyone. What might our other posters think he would do from the upper left corner?
wincardona
Verified Member
( I have made it a habit to look at possible ending positions with the cue ball, in terms of what options I would leave for my opponent, that's a major part of the decision making process. And in this instance you only have to defend against the 10 ball as it lays only an inch from the side rail. From this position you would need to be inside an inch or parallel with the 10 ball for your shot to be a viable option. The way I looked at it, the odds of landing there are slim, especially if your aware of not where to land, which made the 5 ball bank a viable option. (providing it was executable )
Dr. Bill
androd
Verified Member
Well if I was up there and had any chance of opening the cluster (7,10,8,9 maybe ?. I'm not up on the latest colors)
and ducking the C.B.near Charlies pocket, that would be my first choice.
Rod.