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Old 08-17-2019, 02:53 PM
Tom Wirth's Avatar
Tom Wirth Tom Wirth is offline
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Default A Ball on the break proposal

In watching yesterday's match between Scott Frost and Danny Smith I heard an interesting idea when it came to a player who makes
a ball on the break and the re-rack rule is in force. Did any of you catch this?

I don't know if this rule was implemented in this match but here is what was at least suggested:

Rack your own and if you make a ball on the break it calls for a re-rack.
Now here was the interesting part. Should you scratch on your follow-up break you can then have a third and deciding re-rack and break.

I think this is only fair considering how on the first break you would be in such a commanding position
and with having scratched on your second attempt you are now in deep guano. Seems like the two
breaks cancel one another out.
It will not happen often but it will happen.

What does the OP.org public think of this idea?
I suggest we include this rule in our OP.org tournaments.
This inquiring mind wants the know.

Tom
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:01 PM
vapros vapros is offline
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Sure. What a bummer that would be - to scratch on the re-break!
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:44 PM
oldschool1478 oldschool1478 is offline
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A couple of weeks ago, in the first game with a friend who comes over weekly,
I broke and made one. I suggested we start going by OP.org rules and re-rack.
My friend reluctantly agreed. I broke again and scratched in his pocket.
This sounds like a good idea to me.
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:02 PM
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Sounds fair.
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:28 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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At Cal. Billiards 2018 MOT players meeting, the making of a ball on the break never came up. Therefore it was of little importance to the member players! Whitey
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:33 PM
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It was Tres Kane that said that is the rule he has used in events he has run. Every time this topic comes I always used the example of what happens if on the 2nd break you either scratch or sell out the corner ball. My feeling this is not fair. I think Tres' solution moves toward a fairer solution but I don't think solves the case where the breaker sinks a ball on the break and then sells out the corner ball on the 2nd break. Here in this example the breaker has been penalized for his good break and now has to live with his 2nd break where his opponent has a chance to run out or at least take control of the table

Expanding on Tres' rule I would like to see the breaker have the option of a 3rd break if he sells out that ball. Its the only truly fair solution if your are going the repack if the breaker makes a ball.

The best solution is 1 break and whatever happens, happens. Keith
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:00 PM
Billy Jackets Billy Jackets is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Wirth View Post
In watching yesterday's match between Scott Frost and Danny Smith I heard an interesting idea when it came to a player who makes
a ball on the break and the re-rack rule is in force. Did any of you catch this?

I don't know if this rule was implemented in this match but here is what was at least suggested:

Rack your own and if you make a ball on the break it calls for a re-rack.
Now here was the interesting part. Should you scratch on your follow-up break you can then have a third and deciding re-rack and break.

I think this is only fair considering how on the first break you would be in such a commanding position
and with having scratched on your second attempt you are now in deep guano. Seems like the two
breaks cancel one another out.
It will not happen often but it will happen.

What does the OP.org public think of this idea?
I suggest we include this rule in our OP.org tournaments.
This inquiring mind wants the know.

Tom
I think it's the only fair thing to do , all the "fast" fast, faster, people will want to say no.
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:33 PM
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Well Steve, can we have a poll on the most popular options?

Ball on the break...Ball stays down and shooter continues his inning.
This regardless of who racked the balls. (My favorite)

Ball on the break. Ball spots, incoming player shoots.
(Why the need to spot the ball?) (At least give the shooter credit for making the damn thing)

Ball on the break, Ball stays down, opponent shoots. (My second choice)

Ball on break, Re-rack. Scratch on second break, Re-rack again...Stuck with outcome regardless of what happens.

Any other suggestions?

I vote for option #1

Tom
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Old 08-17-2019, 09:40 PM
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The way I play is like you mentioned, if they want to rerack, then no foul if you scratch on the rebrake.

If you make one and sit down, you'll find most brakes, when a ball goes leaves a gold mine for the opposite pocket.
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:19 AM
darmoose darmoose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androd View Post
The way I play is like you mentioned, if they want to rerack, then no foul if you scratch on the rebrake.

If you make one and sit down, you'll find most brakes, when a ball goes leaves a gold mine for the opposite pocket.
Rod,

I normally agree with your thoughts and ideas. I have to admit here that I don't understand why what you are saying here would be true? If one makes a ball on the break or one hangs a ball (near) the pocket, there can't be much of a difference as to what is available to the opponent, and surely can't be predictable, I don't think.


Tom,

First, we must be considering a rule for tournaments only, as private matches can be negotiated to be anything the two players desire, as we all know.

IN tournament situations, if it is a race to four, where the breaks are divided evenly, there is no issue. So, we are talking only about tournaments where there is a race to a odd number, which we could simply eliminate.

There is NO inherent advantage to "racking your own". Each player racks the same number of times, in all cases the opponent has the right to inspect the rack, so nothing to gain there.

My first option, if we must make a rule would be to ban "rack your own" in OP tournament play (no further issue).

If we must accommodate this "racking your own" for some unknown reason, I would vote for the breaker having to break and sit down, no matter what happens (if he makes a ball he keeps it). This is the simplest solution; anything else just further complicates the game, a game known for it's simplicity and subtleness, and ease of understanding, unnecessarily.

Should there be a modicum of truth to what Rod says, then the made ball works to offset the "goldmine". No matter the rule, discerning thoughtful OP players will ferret out the odds to take advantage of having the break. It could be that they will attempt to avoid making a ball in favor of positioning balls instead, which is done routinely throughout the game anyway.

I think we must keep in mind that we are trying to reduce the unfair advantage of having a majority of breaks in some tournaments, nothing more.

TD's should have pushed back at this "rack your own" movement immediately, that was born out of some frustrated player thinking that he was being cheated, or believing he could gain some advantage if he could actually touch the balls before he broke. This is a relatively new development that has caused lots of consternation and no good.
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Last edited by darmoose; 08-18-2019 at 11:32 AM. Reason: error
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