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Old 09-08-2019, 11:29 AM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Default Down on the Shot!

I have been wanting to bring this up, for I have noticed that WPA does not have a clear ruling on when a shooter is down on the shot and the opponent interrupts them. In writing rule suggestions for bcapl, I suggested that it is a foul to interfere with a player when they are down on the shot, and they adopted their version of my suggestion.

It gets tricky when the shooter tries but can not hold up their shot. In this scenario, Bcapl rules a foul on opponent and shooter then excepts balls in position.

This is how I wrote a rule:
Down on the Shot; when the shooter is clearly down on the shot, it is an unsportsmanlike act upon the opponent if he interferes with the shooter. If the shooter can not hold up their shot then the shooter can live with the results of the shot, restore the balls and re-stroke the shot, or accept the table as is with ball in hand.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Of course BIH is BIH/BTL for us. I can see where I can add more clarity to my writing of the rule. thanks, Whitey
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Old 09-08-2019, 02:30 PM
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unoperro unoperro is offline
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Thats a great rule if there is a ref.

Without a ref it is just something else to argue about
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Old 09-08-2019, 03:56 PM
beatle beatle is offline
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thats why i never ever play in a pool tournament as there is always someone wanting to call some rule on you. try that in a cash game and see if you get paid.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:03 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unoperro View Post
Thats a great rule if there is a ref.

Without a ref it is just something else to argue about
Unoperro & Beatle;
So you are playing for money, non tournament, and your completely down on the shot and the opponent approaches the table and interrupts you. What do you do, hit him in the mouth! I was hustling a guy and I am on the winning shot for all the doe after hours of playing even, his friend came up and blew smoke into my eyes.
Of course this is for tournament play, but for hustling you can still play by a certain set of rules, say bcapl or wpa. Even in tournament play any one can call a foul at anytime, whether there is a foul or not. So saying that there needs to be a referee present for this one instance just does not pass the test. Plus bcapl/csi has adopted this rule, and they do not have a referee present at the table at all times.
Interrupting a player when they are down on the shot, is a grievous unsportsmanlike act/foul. What should the resulting penalty be in regards to OP.org? Loss of point, BIH/BTL, or what?
thanks for the comments, guys! This like many other rules are of a very rare incident, but rules are needed to stop those that do not want to play with sportsmanship!
In my town and all towns that play BCA league, if an opponent interrupts a player when they are down on the shot it is a ball in hand foul, no questions asked! Whitey
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:08 PM
beatle beatle is offline
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oh please, dennis ive been playing all my life in rooms where the sweaters are talking and moving around and sitting on the adjoining tables. you just have to get used to distractions in a pool room.

just try calling a foul on a guy that bothers you for some reason while you are shooting. common practice to move a little or cough or something while you are shooting a key shot. and it goes both ways.

sure it is wrong to do but that is how it goes and adapt or die.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:27 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatle View Post
oh please, dennis ive been playing all my life in rooms where the sweaters are talking and moving around and sitting on the adjoining tables. you just have to get used to distractions in a pool room.

just try calling a foul on a guy that bothers you for some reason while you are shooting. common practice to move a little or cough or something while you are shooting a key shot. and it goes both ways.

sure it is wrong to do but that is how it goes and adapt or die.
When I played in late 60's early 70's and mainly at the Bellflower Palace, you could here a pin drop. One night there was 300 hundred sweaters in there watching the action, and you could still here a pin drop, couldn't see the tables for there was so much smoke. Etiquette has changed.

Your right though as it pertains to your world, that's why I said; 'hit him in the mouth'. Lets stick to tournament rules, to stay on point, ok! Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 09-09-2019 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 09-09-2019, 03:44 PM
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unoperro unoperro is offline
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I agree with the rule and your thinking.

But I see it as a potential problem if there is no ref.

BCA says call all combo, banks, jumps.
So where is the problem if you shoot a combo and I say I didnt hear you call it? Or heaven forbid I ask you when down on the shot?

What if you run to the table to nudge a frozen ball and I yell "it is froze" as you stroke it?

Too many scenarios to cover them all but I think you know what I mean.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:13 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unoperro View Post
I agree with the rule and your thinking.

But I see it as a potential problem if there is no ref.

BCA says call all combo, banks, jumps.
So where is the problem if you shoot a combo and I say I didnt hear you call it? Or heaven forbid I ask you when down on the shot?

What if you run to the table to nudge a frozen ball and I yell "it is froze" as you stroke it?

Too many scenarios to cover them all but I think you know what I mean.
Thanks for your comment, it is well taken! BCA goes to great length in trying to minimize the necessity of a ref. not being able to be at the table by being more specific in their rule writings. It is unfortunate that all this ink is necessary to cover the very few that want to cheat the rules. One loop hole that I wanted BCA to eliminate is when shooting past an illegal object ball and it moves, the cheater states; "I moved it with my stick", which is not a foul.
When actually the cb hit it when going past it, which is a foul. Whitey
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:05 PM
Tobermory Tobermory is offline
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A situation that comes up fairly often in 1p match ups, tournament or otherwise, is when a shooter clearly gets down on a shot where the cue ball is very close to an object ball and the shooter intends to hit straight into the object ball in a way that if executed will certainly result in a double hit foul. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, Whitey. Some shooters don't really understand the double hit scenario much less the rule that prohibits the shot.

What is the non-shooting player supposed to do? Call for a ref or someone else to watch the hit, or stay in their chair so as not to "interfere" with the looming illegal shot? The latter, which seems to be what your rule requires, would encourage bad sportsmanship by shooters, or create a scenario that rewards illegal shots.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
I have been wanting to bring this up, for I have noticed that WPA does not have a clear ruling on when a shooter is down on the shot and the opponent interrupts them. In writing rule suggestions for bcapl, I suggested that it is a foul to interfere with a player when they are down on the shot, and they adopted their version of my suggestion.

It gets tricky when the shooter tries but can not hold up their shot. In this scenario, Bcapl rules a foul on opponent and shooter then excepts balls in position.

This is how I wrote a rule:
Down on the Shot; when the shooter is clearly down on the shot, it is an unsportsmanlike act upon the opponent if he interferes with the shooter. If the shooter can not hold up their shot then the shooter can live with the results of the shot, restore the balls and re-stroke the shot, or accept the table as is with ball in hand.

I'd appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Of course BIH is BIH/BTL for us. I can see where I can add more clarity to my writing of the rule. thanks, Whitey
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:29 PM
darmoose darmoose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobermory View Post
A situation that comes up fairly often in 1p match ups, tournament or otherwise, is when a shooter clearly gets down on a shot where the cue ball is very close to an object ball and the shooter intends to hit straight into the object ball in a way that if executed will certainly result in a double hit foul. I'm not sure what you are suggesting, Whitey. Some shooters don't really understand the double hit scenario much less the rule that prohibits the shot.

What is the non-shooting player supposed to do? Call for a ref or someone else to watch the hit, or stay in their chair so as not to "interfere" with the looming illegal shot? The latter, which seems to be what your rule requires, would encourage bad sportsmanship by shooters, or create a scenario that rewards illegal shots.
I totally agree with your concern here. There are too many players who either don't understand the looming double hit or the rule and if not stopped will commit the foul then claim they did not foul.

I try to educate and inform opponents that if the CB passes the point of contact between the Cb and the OB, it is a FOUL. I have even marked that point on the table before the shot on occasion to prove the point.

You cannot write enough rules to cover every miniscule possible infraction that might occur, and we shouldn't try. This disagreement points out the problem very well.

I think we should make it clear all these rules are for tournament play where there is a ref or a TD who can make a call. When playing outside a tournament players must agree on the rules they will play by, period.

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