"Fixing" Angles

Banks

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Dec 7, 2010
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Portland, OR
I started thinking about this at the beginning of the year, as I normally use some kind of spin on my banks..

Would it be better to return to center hits to relearn banking, since fixing them with english, while effective, could be considered more of a handicap for not feeling the natural hit right? Rechecking some of my banks, I did learn a couple of things that ran counter to what I thought before, so I was wondering if maybe learning the center hit banks would be more beneficial than continuing to fix my angles. Or am I already learning the hows and whys by knowing how to create the angle I'm looking for?

Thanks in advance for any help.
 

blackeee

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Jackson, Tn
Banks said:
I started thinking about this at the beginning of the year, as I normally use some kind of spin on my banks..

Would it be better to return to center hits to relearn banking, since fixing them with english, while effective, could be considered more of a handicap for not feeling the natural hit right? Rechecking some of my banks, I did learn a couple of things that ran counter to what I thought before, so I was wondering if maybe learning the center hit banks would be more beneficial than continuing to fix my angles. Or am I already learning the hows and whys by knowing how to create the angle I'm looking for?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Sometimes I fix em, sometimes I don't. Whatever works best for you.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Detroit,Michigan
Banks said:
I started thinking about this at the beginning of the year, as I normally use some kind of spin on my banks..

Would it be better to return to center hits to relearn banking, since fixing them with english, while effective, could be considered more of a handicap for not feeling the natural hit right? Rechecking some of my banks, I did learn a couple of things that ran counter to what I thought before, so I was wondering if maybe learning the center hit banks would be more beneficial than continuing to fix my angles. Or am I already learning the hows and whys by knowing how to create the angle I'm looking for?

Thanks in advance for any help.
Banks,

Anytime you hit the cueball with any type of "spin" or "english" you, in effect, make the pocket smaller (in any pool game). Many times playing banks you must do this to play position or to bank a ball "around" or "inside" a ball. When faced with a bank that can be made without english, I would shoot it without english. Why make the pocket smaller if you don't have to?

Dennis
 

CaliRed

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Heart of the Midwest
Banks said:
I started thinking about this at the beginning of the year, as I normally use some kind of spin on my banks..

Would it be better to return to center hits to relearn banking, since fixing them with english, while effective, could be considered more of a handicap for not feeling the natural hit right? Rechecking some of my banks, I did learn a couple of things that ran counter to what I thought before, so I was wondering if maybe learning the center hit banks would be more beneficial than continuing to fix my angles. Or am I already learning the hows and whys by knowing how to create the angle I'm looking for?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Hmm... you sound like you got the same problem I do. For some unknown reason, I picked up that bad habit when I first started playing and have never thought to get rid of it. I have seriously began to try and correct my ways. When you have elite bankers that tell you they try to use no english, that it's more of the hit (stunning it) or if they do use english, it's a touch inside to help make the pocket bigger, you got to believe that you're doing it all wrong:)

I have developed a feel with the "english banking" and it's going to be very hard to start completely over. I have already found out how hard... I don't know where to aim at now, to make it:eek: It really will be starting completely over, and at 50 years old, that's going to be really hard. But I understand that if I want to give myself the opportunity to improve in banks, I'm going to have to do it. I want to do it right.

Before, I was basically cutting it a little bit and totally relying on the amount of english I used and the speed and the type of stroke, to achieve whatever I needed to do to make the bank. Stupid, I know.. I can't figure out why I did that.

In the WEI below, you can see me just cutting the ball a bit into the rail and then I would use a combination of english/draw/follow and speed of the hit to PUT IT IN THE HOLE.:D

Now that I think about it... what a moron I've been.... I got 20 things going on with my bank, when it could be just a couple. I had pretty good success with it, but it's way too much. I would rather focus on doing it right now.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3EWgo2MVaQ4PUcd1QJqw3YWgo3YbHu4YbKj2hVaQ2hbHE1hdhK4kUcd3kUci3kaiM1lJqw2lTuX2lYDn@[/CUETABLE]
 

wgcp

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long beach, mississippi
I know I am not that great at banks, but I will say this... You don't have to totally understand why the ball goes, it just goes... and with that in mind you really need to read what Freddy says about collision induced throw on banks... specifically about what follow does with the ball...

I now see banks differently than I did before I spent a week at Freddie's house... of course I got something most of us would kill for... personal instruction from one of the best... but you still have to practice "the stroke" to ensure the ball has the proper spin off the rail to go, whether you shorten it or lengthen it... His just cut it a little works on his DVD and in practice...

Just my humble opinion...

Bille
 

lll

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vero beach fl
Cowboy Dennis said:
Banks,

Anytime you hit the cueball with any type of "spin" or "english" you, in effect, make the pocket smaller (in any pool game).
Why make the pocket smaller if you don't have to?

Dennis
i understand that when shooting a ball up the rail into the corner pocket inside english on the ball will help to "turn "it when it hits the facing into the pocket and outside english might make it hang in the pocket
(dont know if you all agree with that)
i know english adds complexity to the shot
but can you explain how english makes the pocket "smaller"?
 

Banks

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Portland, OR
Cowboy Dennis said:
Banks,

Anytime you hit the cueball with any type of "spin" or "english" you, in effect, make the pocket smaller (in any pool game). Many times playing banks you must do this to play position or to bank a ball "around" or "inside" a ball. When faced with a bank that can be made without english, I would shoot it without english. Why make the pocket smaller if you don't have to?

Dennis

I'm going to put my neck out there and disagree that any spin makes a pocket smaller. In many instances, it is used for quite the opposite effect. I'll agree that why make the shot more difficult if you don't have to, but nearly every banker I've heard talks about using english and CIS to widen the pocket(ie- stiffing a bank, holding an angle, etc). I know I hit my cross-corners with speed and a touch of inside and my straight-banks are done with speed and draw. On others, like short corner banks, I'll play more pocket speed, which doesn't allow for as much english to be used unless its a close-up hit. I do have a question for you, though.. do you use center and hit the banks harder, or do you go with more pocket speed?

CaliRed, I've been trying to work on it a little bit, but it has been hard to get into the habit when you're already walking up to the shot thinking about how you'd normally hit it. Using center hits got me paying much, much more attention to CIS and that helped my banking out a bit.

Bill, you're a fortunate man. Maybe I'll toss in the Banking With.. CD after work and give my ideas a cross-check.

I kinda go with Blackeee on my banking.. whatever puts it in the hole. I think learning center a bit better so that I'm more aware of the effects of my fixes could be beneficial, though.

Been meaning to knock around a few more bank racks, but keep getting interrupted.. and my Z shaft still needs to get fixed.

Still bangin em.. so maybe I'm just all wrong! :eek:
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Detroit,Michigan
Banks said:
I'm going to put my neck out there and disagree that any spin makes a pocket smaller. In many instances, it is used for quite the opposite effect. I'll agree that why make the shot more difficult if you don't have to, but nearly every banker I've heard talks about using english and CIS to widen the pocket(ie- stiffing a bank, holding an angle, etc). I know I hit my cross-corners with speed and a touch of inside and my straight-banks are done with speed and draw. On others, like short corner banks, I'll play more pocket speed, which doesn't allow for as much english to be used unless its a close-up hit. I do have a question for you, though.. do you use center and hit the banks harder, or do you go with more pocket speed?
Banks,

I would have to see the shot to be able to tell you how I'd hit it.

You are right about making a pocket "bigger" in certain situations by using english but you also usually make the target on the first rail smaller thereby making the pocket "smaller" in effect. The overall effect is the shot is tougher. Take the layout below:if the 14 wasn't in the way you could just hit center ball and a natural angle. In order to shoot around the 14 you have to hit it with a little more speed and inside english to hold it up. Of course the side-pocket is bigger now because the object ball is going straighter at it but the target on the first rail is now smaller making the overall shot more difficult. You now have less room for error.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@2ICvf2NTMB1PUcM2dCvf2dawO4deOC1kUcM2kAjm2kCXT4uAAR@[/CUETABLE]
 

Banks

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Portland, OR
Cowboy Dennis said:
Banks,

I would have to see the shot to be able to tell you how I'd hit it.

You are right about making a pocket "bigger" in certain situations by using english but you also usually make the target on the first rail smaller thereby making the pocket "smaller" in effect. The overall effect is the shot is tougher. Take the layout below:if the 14 wasn't in the way you could just hit center ball and a natural angle. In order to shoot around the 14 you have to hit it with a little more speed and inside english to hold it up. Of course the side-pocket is bigger now because the object ball is going straighter at it but the target on the first rail is now smaller making the overall shot more difficult. You now have less room for error.

Ok, I see what you're saying now. That's sort of what I was asking.. in fixing the angle, I'm more or less giving up the natural shot and recreating the wheel. I'm just confused about whether or not that's the right thing to do, since being able to make the angle means not really needing the natural angle.. ugh. Oh, to be at a table.. or, better yet, to have a table at work. :(
 

newfosgatesucks

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Nov 23, 2006
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Sometimes...
Some days throw/hold is more predictable-and I use it more. Some days throw is predictable and hold is sensitive, and vice-versa.

Some days cut-throw and cut-hold work better than spin-throw/hold, according to temperature and humidity.

I think it is better to be aware of conditions and play the game accordingly, and learn which shots are affected by what conditions.
 

androd

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New Braunfels tx.
Most of the good bankers I've been around shorten the banks with speed or a hair of inside English. This make the pockets larger because of the angle and they take the balls better with that spin.:) Of course certain banks need to be widened because of balls in the way.:)
Rod.
PS, I'm agreeing with CaliRed here.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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CaliRed said:
I have developed a feel with the "english banking" and it's going to be very hard to start completely over. I have already found out how hard... I don't know where to aim at now, to make it:eek: It really will be starting completely over, and at 50 years old, that's going to be really hard. But I understand that if I want to give myself the opportunity to improve in banks, I'm going to have to do it. I want to do it right.
Greg,

One of the best ways to learn how to not use english on shots is to play with a house cue that has no tip on it. Ask the houseman if there is one waiting to be re-tipped or just slice one off a house cue, just don't get caught:p .

I used to play with no tip to learn where center-ball was and to learn how to aim with it. If you go too far away from center-ball you will miscue.

Dennis
 

Banks

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Portland, OR
Cowboy Dennis said:
Greg,

One of the best ways to learn how to not use english on shots is to play with a house cue that has no tip on it. Ask the houseman if there is one waiting to be re-tipped or just slice one off a house cue, just don't get caught:p .

I used to play with no tip to learn where center-ball was and to learn how to aim with it. If you go too far away from center-ball you will miscue.

Dennis

I learned the center thing with a broomstick, a dowel and a chalkless tip.

Since I have a tendency to not chalk for a while, sometimes I'll intentionally focus closer to center just in case - most of my miscues come from trying to do something funny. Grabbed a house cue the other night off the rack and took my first shot with it.. went to chalk up for the second shot and noticed it was missing the tip. It sure does let you know when you're off at all, though.
 

CaliRed

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Heart of the Midwest
Cowboy Dennis said:
Well Rod, I've never argued with you before :p .

RBL
hmmmm.. I wondered what he was agreeing with me about... thanks for clearing that up for me:eek:

Allright, that does it... from now on I am going to start using my super sekrit special font, that will not allow copy and pasting. It is a special font that keeps my entire post intact, so a person cannot grab bits and pieces, it's all one big piece:)

I was hoping I wouldn't have to dust that off, as I haven't broke it out since 1988.:eek:

Damn... I keep hoping for that one day when someone agrees with me, and it's THAT ????:D
 

bstroud

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I learned to bank from Eddy Taylor. He said use center ball on all banks unless you needed English to make a ball that was not ON or to play position.

This advice has served me well. I am a good banker.

Pool is complicated already. Why make it harder? Think simple.

Bill Stroud
 

lll

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vero beach fl
bstroud said:
I learned to bank from Eddy Taylor. He said use center ball on all banks unless you needed English to make a ball that was not ON or to play position.

This advice has served me well. I am a good banker.

Pool is complicated already. Why make it harder? Think simple.

Bill Stroud
did he tell you the same thing for cut shots??
i was taught to use center ball ( or follow or draw) for everything unless you needed it (english)for position
i know some people who like to use alittle spin on all but straight in shots
 

newfosgatesucks

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I nearly totally agree. With one exception - I try to bank such that the cueball has center on it at the time of impact...In other words I use draw on the long ones. ( This is assuming that the object ball is close enough to the rail that given the speed, otherwise would have draw on IT from cue top-spin)


In your recollections, did Eddie cut-throw/hold most of the time, just given a shot that is a little off-angle, or did he use a little spin? For example, the cross-side shots that come up where you can pass or hold, did he play them center?


bstroud said:
I learned to bank from Eddy Taylor. He said use center ball on all banks unless you needed English to make a ball that was not ON or to play position.

This advice has served me well. I am a good banker.

Pool is complicated already. Why make it harder? Think simple.

Bill Stroud
 

fred bentivegna

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chicago illinois
Think politics

Think politics

newfosgatesucks said:
I nearly totally agree. With one exception - I try to bank such that the cueball has center on it at the time of impact.
Very good advice!
..In other words I use draw on the long ones. ( This is assuming that the object ball is close enough to the rail that given the speed, otherwise would have draw on IT from cue top-spin)


In your recollections, did Eddie cut-throw/hold most of the time, just given a shot that is a little off-angle, or did he use a little spin? For example, the cross-side shots that come up where you can pass or hold, did he play them center?

You see what going left or right in politics gets you, right? Center ball on almost all. Spin might keep you from the win, and even a little spin might do you in. If you use juice you are playing loose.
You see what too much juice has done to the mind of the UPS's Spelling Champ, right? If you misspell, misspell, you can go to hell.

Beard
 

Terry Ardeno

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Washington, Pa
"Pool his-tory AIN'T no my-stery!"....

"Pool his-tory AIN'T no my-stery!"....

fred bentivegna said:
You see what going left or right in politics gets you, right? Center ball on almost all. Spin might keep you from the win, and even a little spin might do you in. If you use juice you are playing loose.
Beard


Freddy, I never thought I'd see the day come when you branch off into some entry-level "hip-hop"! As I read thru that, I couldn't help but imagine you bopping your head up & down to some beat going on inside your noggin as you rapped your way thru that little diddy!

Let me try one...(Start off with a ghetto-like drum beat as background music)

"Freddy the Beard"...or "Freddy the Bench"...
"Chi-town's finest"..."He'll wrench your wallet"
"Don't just babble, cause he'll beat you at scrabble"
"Dude's got a website...Hey, you wanna fight?"

"Ba-doo-ba-ba, da-coo-la-ra...."

"Beard can party and he's the smartie"
"Beard's a friend for life if you don't cause him strife"
Freddy's a banker, he'll do the spankin'"
"The higher the bet, the more you're gonna sweat"

"Cha-ku-do-ga-ma-lew-bu-ta..."

"Spaghetti & meatballs, or all the balls....
They all go down when Freddy's around"
"Fred wrote books, he ain't no crook"
"Bankin' with the Beard....the man's to be feared!"

"Moo-ra-la-to, kazim da pa...."

"Spaghetti & Freddy, love at first sight"
"He's gotta big heart, he's a sucker for the bite"
"Thanks to Fred & all he's lived..
we read great stories of lot's of glory"

"Sha-ka-moo-tee, la-ru sho-fa..."

"Come to Chi-town, & play Fred a round,
then get back on the plane, feeling like a clown"
"One Pocket.org is just the chord...
to learn how to play, that's all I got to say"
 
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