Owen vs. Chohan 2007 U.S. Open final

Jimmy B

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Very innovative, Dudley. Shows good imagination, which is what you need for one pocket. I always look for something easy, so I was going to do this with all the right I could get on it, but if Dr. Bill says that he set it up and to take the intentional, then I will. I would probably leave him a three railer to win it anyway

 

androd

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I like soft kicking at the 14 ball
Soft-rolling the kick on the 14 if you miss a rail or ball, so what, you just took a scratch to a good spot -- maybe even under the 5 enough that Tony could not even see the 15 for the straight back.

I agree with Steve. I'd softly try to kick the 5 ball with the 14 ball for a little back up. With the speed to not get hurt if I miss my target. I'd never be on the wrong side, so maybe it is an intentional.
Rod.

 

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jtompilot

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Very innovative, Dudley. Shows good imagination, which is what you need for one pocket. I always look for something easy, so I was going to do this with all the right I could get on it, but if Dr. Bill says that he set it up and to take the intentional, then I will. I would probably leave him a three railer to win it anyway


That's the first shot I was thinking about. Dr Bill and Ghost didn't like it so I started thinking more conservative with a safety.

That shot is way better than a poor safety as long as you don't scratch. I think the qb gets closer to scratching than diagramed.
 

Scrzbill

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Dudly, that should be the last shot you shoot. One you only need one. Two cue ball on that shot goes towards the corner. Three you would need to juice up the cue to not sell out the end rail balls or to leave a bank back. My shot is the slow rail kick for the three pushing it far enough away to stop the bank.
 

Dudley

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Dudly, that should be the last shot you shoot. One you only need one. Two cue ball on that shot goes towards the corner. Three you would need to juice up the cue to not sell out the end rail balls or to leave a bank back. My shot is the slow rail kick for the three pushing it far enough away to stop the bank.

Agreed, But I wanted to add another shot to the conversation. If I thought I could make it I might take a swing at it. Getting lucky shooting the wrong shot is a skill I possess-> So I hear. :heh

Dud
 

wincardona

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Bill if you take the scratch, then is the reply to half ball the 5 and leave the qb and 5 on the rail. How much does accomplish? Would a better scratch have the qb below and to the right of the 5, froze is preferable. There would be no good reply's from there.

If the intentional is taken where I suggested (top right corner close to the rail) Chohan has only two reasonable replies. He can possibly cross the 15ball to his side and bring the cue ball back up table to hopefully the top rail. Or he can shoot off the 5ball with a medium speed and send the 5ball to his side rail far enough up the rail not to leave a cross corner return bank for Gabe. Either one of his replies carries a penalty if not struck well. Plus there really isn't any production to speak of with either reply if hit well.

With John's kick safety if not hit well you run the risk of selling out the straight back on the 15ball to either possibly win the game or improve your position (for Chohan) depending on how you prefer playing off the 15ball. In terms of the speed you hit it with. With John's kick safety you're probably a 65% favorite to strike the 5ball without fouling. However when you strike the 5ball you will allow Chohan to see the 15ball allowing him to dictate how the game will be played from there. If you miss the 5ball with John's kick you still may allow Chohan to see the 15ball, plus you lose a ball for fouling with the shot. Imo the best result you can get with the kick safety of John's is to miss the 5ball and "snooker" Chohan in back of the 5ball not allowing him to dictate how the game will be played.

If my forecast is accurate I would rather lose a ball by taking the intentional to the top right corner, insuring that I will not be in trouble with my next shot, nor will I ever lose the game from that position. Taking the foul is the price you pay for the insurance of getting out of trouble, and remaining the favorite in the game.

Kicking at the 5ball is a gamble. It could work out well for you, however, it could also cost you the game. Taking the intentional is playing a controlled game while being the favorite. Plus your destiny will always be in your hands with the intentional.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Very innovative, Dudley. Shows good imagination, which is what you need for one pocket. I always look for something easy, so I was going to do this with all the right I could get on it, but if Dr. Bill says that he set it up and to take the intentional, then I will. I would probably leave him a three railer to win it anyway


Jimmy, the angle for the shot you drew up just isn't there. If it is it's very risky. With your shot the 15ball must be hit extremely thin, and controlling both the cue ball and 15ball Imo is asking too much. Not a viable option.:sorry

Dr. Bill
 

vapros

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Dr.Bill

Dr.Bill

If you take an intentional safety to the upper right corner, why in the world would Tony not bank the 15 toward the 5 and 10, with just enough speed to make one if he gets lucky? He might win from there and should get fairly safe. Tony's worst case would find him with all 3 balls clustered around his pocket. I don't understand. Are we both seeing the same picture?
 
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wincardona

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I like soft kicking at the 14 ball or the Ghost's soft roll of the 15-ball to the bottom rail. The soft roll on the 15 would depend on the scratch angle, like he said -- not shooting it if it looks like a scratch angle. Personally, I would not cut the 15 to make it -- it looks like too tough a shot for me to want to bet the game, although the camera does foreshorten the table quite a bit.

No way would I kick hard enough to skim off the 5-ball and go back up table, although I like that shot in other situations. The way I see that kick -- advocates are talking about hitting it basically like you are trying to make the ball, right? -- it's lying a little far out from the corner, and off the rail to assure a good hit consistently, and bad things can happen if you don't get a good light nick on that 5, i.e., you get under it too much or God forbid you miss it completely and sell out either the 15 or the ball you have to spot because you missed your kick. Soft-rolling the kick on the 14 if you miss a rail or ball, so what, you just took a scratch to a good spot -- maybe even under the 5 enough that Tony could not even see the 15 for the straight back.

I agree with most of what you say. The two rail kick into the 5ball is risky, but doable. The 15ball is not an option to try to pocket it. Kicking at the 14ball is a decent option, however, playing an upper echelon player it's a gamble that I would prefer not taking. Which I explained in an earlier post. Kicking at the 14ball is probably the best option for average to below average players, simply because the position of the 15ball is a demanding shot that average players usually don't do well with.

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Bill if you take the scratch, then is the reply to half ball the 5 and leave the qb and 5 on the rail. How much does accomplish? Would a better scratch have the qb below and to the right of the 5, froze is preferable. There would be no good reply's from there.

If the intentional is taken where I suggested (top right corner close to the rail) Chohan has only two reasonable replies. He can possibly cross the 15ball to his side and bring the cue ball back up table to hopefully the top rail. Or he can shoot off the 5ball with a medium speed and send the 5ball to his side rail far enough up the rail not to leave a cross corner return bank for Gabe. Either one of his replies carries a penalty if not struck well. Plus there really isn't any production to speak of with either reply if hit well.

With John's kick safety if not hit well you run the risk of selling out the straight back on the 15ball to either possibly win the game or improve your position (for Chohan) depending on how you prefer playing off the 15ball. In terms of the speed you hit it with. With John's kick safety you're probably a 65% favorite to strike the 5ball without fouling. However when you strike the 5ball you will allow Chohan to see the 15ball allowing him to dictate how the game will be played from there. If you miss the 5ball with John's kick you still may allow Chohan to see the 15ball, plus you lose a ball for fouling with the shot. Imo the best result you can get with the kick safety of John's is to miss the 5ball and "snooker" Chohan in back of the 5ball not allowing him to dictate how the game will be played.

If my forecast is accurate I would rather lose a ball by taking the intentional to the top right corner, insuring that I will not be in trouble with my next shot, nor will I ever lose the game from that position. Taking the foul is the price you pay for the insurance of getting out of trouble, and remaining the favorite in the game.

Kicking at the 5ball is a gamble. It could work out well for you, however, it could also cost you the game. Taking the intentional is playing a controlled game while being the favorite. Plus your destiny will always be in your hands with the intentional.

Dr. Bill
 

Scrzbill

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Agreed, But I wanted to add another shot to the conversation. If I thought I could make it I might take a swing at it. Getting lucky shooting the wrong shot is a skill I possess-> So I hear. :heh

Dud

I gave my reasons, its not a good idea. At that point in the game, it is an unnecessary risk. Gabe needs one and Tony is a monster at making shots, getting out, plus he is very imaginative. I played him many times and just giving him a little shot turns out badly for me. Of course he has lost as many games shooting the same way. Of course if the two balls are not at Tonys side of the table close to his pocket, its different. I will be very happy to see him back on the scene again. You make your own luck Simon and firing is the only way yo get lucky. Your statement reminds me of Fhilpino Gene. ABC Always Be Closing but in pool its Always Be Cunning. No pool for me until after Jan 18, 2013. I'll meet you in church.
 

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jtompilot

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You don't understand my shot. I'm taking a foul, not kicking at the 5 or 10.

I want the qb on the rail or very close to the 5 with the 5 blocking the 15. That seems better than the qb near the rt top corner.


If the intentional is taken where I suggested (top right corner close to the rail) Chohan has only two reasonable replies. He can possibly cross the 15ball to his side and bring the cue ball back up table to hopefully the top rail. Or he can shoot off the 5ball with a medium speed and send the 5ball to his side rail far enough up the rail not to leave a cross corner return bank for Gabe. Either one of his replies carries a penalty if not struck well. Plus there really isn't any production to speak of with either reply if hit well.

With John's kick safety if not hit well you run the risk of selling out the straight back on the 15ball to either possibly win the game or improve your position (for Chohan) depending on how you prefer playing off the 15ball. In terms of the speed you hit it with. With John's kick safety you're probably a 65% favorite to strike the 5ball without fouling. However when you strike the 5ball you will allow Chohan to see the 15ball allowing him to dictate how the game will be played from there. If you miss the 5ball with John's kick you still may allow Chohan to see the 15ball, plus you lose a ball for fouling with the shot. Imo the best result you can get with the kick safety of John's is to miss the 5ball and "snooker" Chohan in back of the 5ball not allowing him to dictate how the game will be played.

If my forecast is accurate I would rather lose a ball by taking the intentional to the top right corner, insuring that I will not be in trouble with my next shot, nor will I ever lose the game from that position. Taking the foul is the price you pay for the insurance of getting out of trouble, and remaining the favorite in the game.

Kicking at the 5ball is a gamble. It could work out well for you, however, it could also cost you the game. Taking the intentional is playing a controlled game while being the favorite. Plus your destiny will always be in your hands with the intentional.

Dr. Bill
 

gulfportdoc

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Okay, lads. Here's what Gabe did. I was shocked to see him cut the 15!! He's a good mover, and he'd tied Tony up for most of the match, so I about fell of my chair when he shot the cut.

He looked at the layout for 3-4 minutes, then leaned over and rolled it. He over-cut the 15, and the CB kicked down to leave a beautiful layout for Tony, needing all three:

Chohan-Owen 2.jpg

Surprisingly, Tony did not get out! He shot the 5 ball in, then got a little high on the 14. So after making the 14 the CB banked up for shape on the 15-ball bank too long, so that it wasn't makeable. Then they both needed one. Gabe ended up screwing up another shot, allowing Tony to prevail in that game.

My favorite shot from the original layout would be what a few of you have discussed: a relatively simple kick into the 5. If Tony went for the 15 and missed, which he undoubtedly would, then Gabe would have had much easier options than he had with the original layout:

Chohan-Owen 3.jpg

The commentators, John Schmidt and Shawn Putnam --who provided excellent commentary-- both liked the kick to the 5 ball. BTW, I also like the two-rail kick to the 5 ball, but that's a shot that's easier to screw up...;) ~Doc
 

lll

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Okay, lads.
BTW, I also like the two-rail kick to the 5 ball, but that's a shot that's easier to screw up...;) ~Doc
i know that billy and sjd and the commentators of the match liked( or considered it as a REASONABLE option) the 2 rail kick to the 5
if i knew how to do a poll i would do it here


so come on guys
all of you regulars that post be honest
was that a shot you would have considered as realistic for you??
and if you didnt see it
would it still be a realistic shot for you???
yes or no will do
if there is a qualifier ok
 

jazznpool

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Thanks for posting this one up Doc. Your shot, also mentioned by others, is also the shot I like in this situation.

Martin


Okay, lads. Here's what Gabe did. I was shocked to see him cut the 15!! He's a good mover, and he'd tied Tony up for most of the match, so I about fell of my chair when he shot the cut.

He looked at the layout for 3-4 minutes, then leaned over and rolled it. He over-cut the 15, and the CB kicked down to leave a beautiful layout for Tony, needing all three:

View attachment 7265

Surprisingly, Tony did not get out! He shot the 5 ball in, then got a little high on the 14. So after making the 14 the CB banked up for shape on the 15-ball bank too long, so that it wasn't makeable. Then they both needed one. Gabe ended up screwing up another shot, allowing Tony to prevail in that game.

My favorite shot from the original layout would be what a few of you have discussed: a relatively simple kick into the 5. If Tony went for the 15 and missed, which he undoubtedly would, then Gabe would have had much easier options than he had with the original layout:

View attachment 7264

The commentators, John Schmidt and Shawn Putnam --who provided excellent commentary-- both liked the kick to the 5 ball. BTW, I also like the two-rail kick to the 5 ball, but that's a shot that's easier to screw up...;) ~Doc
 

Miller

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no feminine hygiene products for gabe......surprised he missed it, especially that bad.

lot of diverse opinions on this one with some excellent analysis....coming in behind them would have been pretty tough.

thanks for putting it up.

dustin "backcut" miller
:)
 

jtompilot

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If your kicking one rail into the 5, I'll be jumping so fast to bank the 15 and send the qb three rails your head might spin:eek:
 

jtompilot

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On the cut shot did the qb hit below the side pocket? I was wondering if top right would have sent the qb three rails not selling out an easy shot.
 
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