Can you decline a foul your opponent calls on himself?

cityhall

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If your opponent calls a non obvious foul on himself for something like a double hit or moving two object balls, can you decline it if the spotted ball blocks your shot?

I've asked a few people and no one has any idea who gets final say when you have this reverse dispute about a foul.
 

NH Steve

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If your opponent calls a non obvious foul on himself for something like a double hit or moving two object balls, can you decline it if the spotted ball blocks your shot?

I've asked a few people and no one has any idea who gets final say when you have this reverse dispute about a foul.

Great question!! With no ref or neutral observer, I would lean toward yes, as the opponent, you should be able to decline a foul you did not see. Of course you could accept it if you wanted too. If there is a ref or neutral, then no, it's a foul.

On the flip side, there are plenty of times a shooter might foul but say nothing, and with it not being particularly obvious or the opponent not paying close attention, the shooter gets away with it.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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CityHall,
So obviously you think he did not foul, right?
Or do you think it is your right as the opponent to determine if the shooter fouled?
Or do you think he is cheating and did not foul, but really called a foul upon himself to block your next shot? I can see this happening, for there are rules written just because players bend the rules, and more that could be written that are not.

And in your case a rule could be written that states: A player can not call a foul upon themselves, but must respond when questioned as to whether they fouled.

But there is no rule governing this in WPA and I do not think CSI covers this specifically. A whole lot of players, out of what they think is good sportsmanship, call a foul upon themselves. There is no rule you have to call a foul upon yourself, nor should it ever be regarding as poor sportsmanship to not call a foul upon yourself.

Just tonight in BCAPL league 8-ball a player called a foul upon himself, stating he contacted the opponents ball first, the opponent said no it was a good hit. And it was!

It is the responsibility of the opponent to pay attention to the game, and to call fouls. So how did it turn out? Whitey
 

El Chapo

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CityHall,
So obviously you think he did not foul, right?
Or do you think it is your right as the opponent to determine if the shooter fouled?
Or do you think he is cheating and did not foul, but really called a foul upon himself to block your next shot? I can see this happening, for there are rules written just because players bend the rules, and more that could be written that are not.

And in your case a rule could be written that states: A player can not call a foul upon themselves, but must respond when questioned as to whether they fouled.

But there is no rule governing this in WPA and I do not think CSI covers this specifically. A whole lot of players, out of what they think is good sportsmanship, call a foul upon themselves. There is no rule you have to call a foul upon yourself, nor should it ever be regarding as poor sportsmanship to not call a foul upon yourself.

Just tonight in BCAPL league 8-ball a player called a foul upon himself, stating he contacted the opponents ball first, the opponent said no it was a good hit. And it was!

It is the responsibility of the opponent to pay attention to the game, and to call fouls. So how did it turn out? Whitey

I totally agree with that. I also don't think anyone should portray players as heros for calling fouls on themselves. It is just something they did. This is used as sort of posturing in the pool world on many occasions, and i just don't agree with it. A player is not some sort of saint, stand up guy if he calls fouls on himself. I am not knocking his behavior either, just saying it doesn't matter to me in the slightest when considering his character.
 

Jimmy B

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If your opponent calls a non obvious foul on himself for something like a double hit or moving two object balls, can you decline it if the spotted ball blocks your shot?

I've asked a few people and no one has any idea who gets final say when you have this reverse dispute about a foul.



No.. If you can decline a foul in that situation, then you would have to be able to decline it in another situation, such as when they follow your last ball in.. How can you ever pick and choose on that??!!
 

lll

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If your opponent calls a non obvious foul on himself for something like a double hit or moving two object balls, can you decline it if the spotted ball blocks your shot?

I've asked a few people and no one has any idea who gets final say when you have this reverse dispute about a foul.

this is an interesting question because what if your opponent says he fouled when he did not and as you describe above the spotted ball blocks your shot??
the calling a foul on yourself could be a move like conveniently remembering when to say your opponent or you needs to spot a forgotten owed ball.
I think the answer is to treat the called on yourself foul the same way
spot the ball right away or wait 2 innings
just a thought
icbw
 

baby huey

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I think in most situations a person calling a foul on himself is a good sport BUT beware of people bearing gifts. I am not aware of any rule that says you have to accept the self called foul but I just don't know for sure. It seems as though the incoming shooter might have some say in the self called foul and whether or not they have to accept it. Help here Steve Booth, what say thee?
 

NH Steve

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I think in most situations a person calling a foul on himself is a good sport BUT beware of people bearing gifts. I am not aware of any rule that says you have to accept the self called foul but I just don't know for sure. It seems as though the incoming shooter might have some say in the self called foul and whether or not they have to accept it. Help here Steve Booth, what say thee?
Great question!! With no ref or neutral observer, I would lean toward yes, as the opponent, you should be able to decline a foul you did not see. Of course you could accept it if you wanted too. If there is a ref or neutral, then no, it's a foul.

On the flip side, there are plenty of times a shooter might foul but say nothing, and with it not being particularly obvious or the opponent not paying close attention, the shooter gets away with it.
I commented earlier -- it is definitely a good question!

PS, it would not be a question playing with any variation of darmoose going forward rule idea -- who is going to turn down a ball lol? :D:D
 

darmoose

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I commented earlier -- it is definitely a good question!

PS, it would not be a question playing with any variation of darmoose going forward rule idea -- who is going to turn down a ball lol? :D:D

Good catch, Steve. Also, the penalty ball does not go on spot, but in opponent's rack, thereby eliminating the reason to pull this little move.

Also, note that the PIBOOF rule, giving the incoming player the option, when there is a foul, to either accept the shot or not, again eliminating the incentive to pull this, as well as other "moves".

Great new rules ideas, huh?;)

:D:D
 

Red Shoes

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NO you can not "CALL" a foul on yourself. We of course would ALL PLAY a gentleman's game. When we bring to our opponents attention something they might have missed OR they have yet to say, we should be commended BUT there are of course a few situations where FOULING would be to our advantage. With no ref. the foul CALL rests with your opponent.
 

jlcomp45

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dotting the cue

dotting the cue

I'm not addressing the advantage/disadvantage of calling a foul - but there are times you KNOW you dotted the cue ball (even if it doesn't move), and not calling it on yourself would speak directly to your own integrity. Any legitimate foul should always be called in my opinion.
 

Jimmy B

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NO you can not "CALL" a foul on yourself. We of course would ALL PLAY a gentleman's game. When we bring to our opponents attention something they might have missed OR they have yet to say, we should be commended BUT there are of course a few situations where FOULING would be to our advantage. With no ref. the foul CALL rests with your opponent.


So you are saying if I touch the tip of my cue tip to the cue ball and take an obvious foul, my opponent can declare that he does NOT want a ball to be spotted, if it creates some advantage.. Right???
 

darmoose

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NO you can not "CALL" a foul on yourself. We of course would ALL PLAY a gentleman's game. When we bring to our opponents attention something they might have missed OR they have yet to say, we should be commended BUT there are of course a few situations where FOULING would be to our advantage. With no ref. the foul CALL rests with your opponent.


Thanks for clarifying, that's great to know.

Now, I know I don't have to accept that intentional foul my opponent just tried to take to offset the trap I put him in. So, what do I do, make him shoot again? I like it.

:D:D
 
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El Chapo

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I have always believed what we really need to do here is work from the other end. A foul should never be a disadvantage for the incoming player. How we would do that I am not saying is an easy question to answer, but it would solve this and dozens of other little problems if we approached it like that (ie made the game logical instead of turning "gutter balls" into advantageous shots).
 

jlcomp45

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I don't think I can agree with that statement. An intentional foul at times is as much a skill shot as a carom bank to start an 8 & out. It's part of the beauty of 1 pocket. And as such, it's designed to put the incoming player at a disadvantage. I pay for it by giving back a ball - or owing one going forward.
 

baby huey

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Speaking about using fouls to help yourself, I remember one time watching Efren play where he was truly locked up and couldn't go anywhere to help himself. He simply pushed the cueball right onto the spot. He then spotted a ball and left his opponent stymied. He ended up winning the game. In One Pocket these moves are simply part of a game that is truly intriguing where all is not lost if you can simply think it through. In nine/ten ball we see it all the time where a player is hooked and cannot hit the ball and he ties up other balls such that he makes the incoming player open them up in order to run out. This is what makes One Pocket such a great game.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Here is another example of a player loop holing the rules. When shooting the cb past a close proximity illegal ob and the ball moves, and you see it move as the cb passes it, so then you call a foul.
The cheater then responds; "I hit with my cue stick"!
This has happened a few times to me, so I talked to a head regional ref. about this and he just tweaked his head, he had no real answer for this. But, I talked to a regular ref. and he stated; "how does the cue beat the cue ball to the ob"? And he further stated always call a ref. when someone pulls this on you. I thought those were very good answers.

I wrote up a rule that would prevent this cheating tactic, but it was not adopted by CSI. They do have a rule when you jump over an illegal object or masse' around and it moves, it is a foul regardless whether it is contacted by the cue of cue ball. But this rule has further flaws that a cheater could use, for it states in jumping or masse' on a 'direct path' to your intended ob. But many times you jump over balls to contact a rail and then to contact the intended ob, thus 'not' on a direct path. They did not adopt that adjustment to the rule either.
Well what can you do, you try to help and they do not want it, even though they ask for suggestions. Whitey
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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Speaking about using fouls to help yourself, I remember one time watching Efren play where he was truly locked up and couldn't go anywhere to help himself. He simply pushed the cueball right onto the spot. He then spotted a ball and left his opponent stymied. He ended up winning the game. In One Pocket these moves are simply part of a game that is truly intriguing where all is not lost if you can simply think it through. In nine/ten ball we see it all the time where a player is hooked and cannot hit the ball and he ties up other balls such that he makes the incoming player open them up in order to run out. This is what makes One Pocket such a great game.
Jerry, yes this is very cool tactic, and the trap is further enhanced by the fact you can not freeze the ob to the cb, making it very hard to work with an ob that is 'not' frozen to the cb.
Where I played in spotting a ball it was always spotted frozen to the cue ball. As you know you can then use the ob to get out of a trap for you can shoot into it without fouling. This is also in line with my '68 BCA rule book, where it states all balls spotted are spotted frozen to balls, including the cb.

We have discussed this before and most all members do not remember this way of spotted, or thought it might be regional, or maybe just forgot how the game was played. Whitey
 
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