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Old 06-29-2019, 12:38 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Default Rule; cb in motion/interfered with!

I was playing this guy and he used the bridge to finely cut in a ball off the foot rail, but he stroked it badly and missed and not only that the cb came back and hit the bridge and left me horrible. By rule I have to play the cb where it lies and accept the table as is. It seems holy unfair for otherwise he was going to sell out to my hole if the cb was not interfered with!

From the Official OP rules:
6. FOULS
6.3 Following either a pocket scratch or the cue ball jumping the table, the incoming player has cue ball in hand behind the head string. Following any other foul, the cue ball is played where it lies.
--------
I'd like to see this added to the sentence: Exception being: when a cue ball is in motion and is subsequently interfered with, the incoming player then has the option to accept the table as is, or accept the table as is with ball in hand.

What say ye! thanks, Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 06-29-2019 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 06-29-2019, 03:20 PM
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NH Steve NH Steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
I was playing this guy and he used the bridge to finely cut in a ball off the foot rail, but he stroked it badly and missed and not only that the cb came back and hit the bridge and left me horrible. By rule I have to play the cb where it lies and accept the table as is. It seems holy unfair for otherwise he was going to sell out to my hole if the cb was not interfered with!

From the Official OP rules:
6. FOULS
6.3 Following either a pocket scratch or the cue ball jumping the table, the incoming player has cue ball in hand behind the head string. Following any other foul, the cue ball is played where it lies.
--------
I'd like to see this added to the sentence: Exception being: when a cue ball is in motion and is subsequently interfered with, the incoming player then has the option to accept the table as is, or accept the table as is with ball in hand.

What say ye! thanks, Whitey
I think that is a good and "fair" rule -- but aren't you one who likes to see a minimum of "exceptions" to rules? Obviously you have identified something that you care about to make an exception to the standard rules, so I am listening for sure!!

As I think about it, another situation such a rule might apply is an illegal stroke to freeze the cue ball in a cornerhook, or the like. One of the specific One Pocket rules at DCC is as follows:

Quote:
Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball

It is a foul if you deliberately trap or wedge the cue ball in the jaw of the pocket. In addition to the foul penalty, your opponent receives cue ball in hand behind the head string.
Our own rules have this, which I would say is the paragraph that would need to be re-written to incorporate such a rule:

Quote:
6.6 Intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. However, if the acting official rules that a player has used an illegal technique to direct the cue ball or any object balls to a more desirable location, then the incoming player has the option of either playing the balls where they lie, or requesting the official to restore all such moved balls to their location prior to the illegal maneuver. The offending player is charged the standard one ball foul penalty, and in addition may be further penalized at the discretion of the acting official under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct.
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Old 06-29-2019, 07:42 PM
One pocket Smitty One pocket Smitty is offline
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I understand your pain of not having a good shot, but I don't think an exception to a rule is need for this foul. He certainly didn't do it on purpose.---Smitty
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Old 06-29-2019, 09:11 PM
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I lean towards incoming player having choice, play it like it lays or BIH behind the line.

Backroom rules to some, but interference should never favor the offender. This would have to be agreed by common opponents, as mentioned above, it was unintentional.
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Old 06-30-2019, 09:57 AM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Steve,
To properly categorize rulings, and to eliminate ambiguity as much as possible with clarity is highly important in development of a rule, and this is what you would like me to respond to.
I believe 6.3 can be expanded to include more Ball in Hand Fouls, because that is already the premise of 6.3. The broad statement of 'following any other fouls, the cue ball is played where it lies', needs some added clarification.

Ball in Hand Fouls: interfering with a cue ball in motion, with ball in hand placement / disturbing a ball, and we have discussed in length the placing of the hand in a pocket to catch a ball, and in this instance the cue ball would apply.

6.6 I would suggest making it into two separate paragraphs. With the second paragraph starting with the word 'However'. At the end of this sentence after the words; 'illegal maneuver', I suggest that is where to add; 'or can receive ball in hand'.

I believe that adding this could eliminate the need to express the acting official actions. For one, very seldom is an official present, for two, the ball in hand option suffices the penalty unless it is grievous.

Clarification of what is; 'an illegal technique', would eliminate some ambiguity, for when I relate to this terminology it is using a stroke that is swiping or uplifting or the use of another part of the cue.

Here is a suggestive writing that may offer up some ideas:
However, Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball by use of an illegal cue ball contact, or illegally stroking the cue ball by a double hit, push shot, or a push stroke in the jaw of a pocket, in a cluster of balls, in the stack, to freeze into a rail, or otherwise to illegally direct a ball to a more desirable location will be considered an unsportsmanlike act foul whether intentional or not. In addition to the one ball penalty, the incoming opponent has the option of accepting the table as is, have the balls restored if possible, or to receive ball in hand. If the unsportsmanlike act is considered grievous then further discipline may be applied by the acting official.

Thanks, Steve for recognizing that it is a good and fair rule, just how to implement and where. Whitey
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Old 06-30-2019, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
...
Here is a suggestive writing that may offer up some ideas:
However, Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball by use of an illegal cue ball contact, or illegally stroking the cue ball by a double hit, push shot, or a push stroke in the jaw of a pocket, in a cluster of balls, in the stack, to freeze into a rail, or otherwise to illegally direct a ball to a more desirable location will be considered an unsportsmanlike act foul whether intentional or not. In addition to the one ball penalty, the incoming opponent has the option of accepting the table as is, have the balls restored if possible, or to receive ball in hand. If the unsportsmanlike act is considered grievous then further discipline may be applied by the acting official.
...
In my view it should read, "...ball in hand in the Kitchen" (or above the head string). I can't see a situation in one-pocket where a player should ever receive ball in hand anywhere on the table. It seems to me the lamentable BIH rule was incorporated first in Texas Express 9-ball rules, which were themselves a travesty.

~Doc
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
Steve,
To properly categorize rulings, and to eliminate ambiguity as much as possible with clarity is highly important in development of a rule, and this is what you would like me to respond to.
I believe 6.3 can be expanded to include more Ball in Hand Fouls, because that is already the premise of 6.3. The broad statement of 'following any other fouls, the cue ball is played where it lies', needs some added clarification.

Ball in Hand Fouls: interfering with a cue ball in motion, with ball in hand placement / disturbing a ball, and we have discussed in length the placing of the hand in a pocket to catch a ball, and in this instance the cue ball would apply.

6.6 I would suggest making it into two separate paragraphs. With the second paragraph starting with the word 'However'. At the end of this sentence after the words; 'illegal maneuver', I suggest that is where to add; 'or can receive ball in hand'.

I believe that adding this could eliminate the need to express the acting official actions. For one, very seldom is an official present, for two, the ball in hand option suffices the penalty unless it is grievous.

Clarification of what is; 'an illegal technique', would eliminate some ambiguity, for when I relate to this terminology it is using a stroke that is swiping or uplifting or the use of another part of the cue.

Here is a suggestive writing that may offer up some ideas:
However, Trapping or Wedging the Cue Ball by use of an illegal cue ball contact, or illegally stroking the cue ball by a double hit, push shot, or a push stroke in the jaw of a pocket, in a cluster of balls, in the stack, to freeze into a rail, or otherwise to illegally direct a ball to a more desirable location will be considered an unsportsmanlike act foul whether intentional or not. In addition to the one ball penalty, the incoming opponent has the option of accepting the table as is, have the balls restored if possible, or to receive ball in hand. If the unsportsmanlike act is considered grievous then further discipline may be applied by the acting official.

Thanks, Steve for recognizing that it is a good and fair rule, just how to implement and where. Whitey
Thank you. I actually started working on a proposed re-write to give us something to look at -- then I got tired and took a nap instead lol. But one thought did come to mind that made me a bit uncomfortable, and that is, I realized there are a lot of different kinds of fouls that involve accidentally or on purpose causing a misdirection of the cue ball. One obvious one (I think, lol) is any kind of "double hit" for example. Or possibly even a miscue.

I just dont' want to see any new unintended consequences with ANY new rule changes.
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  #8  
Old 06-30-2019, 01:22 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gulfportdoc View Post
In my view it should read, "...ball in hand in the Kitchen" (or above the head string). I can't see a situation in one-pocket where a player should ever receive ball in hand anywhere on the table. It seems to me the lamentable BIH rule was incorporated first in Texas Express 9-ball rules, which were themselves a travesty.

~Doc
Doc, Sorry for the misconception, I should of made the distinction that Ball in Hand in OP is always in the kitchen. So there should be no need to distinguish between the two. Plus it is very wearisome to always have to right out, Ball in Hand Behind the Line.
Generally, this would always be clarified in the OP Glossary of Terms, and the reason for Glossaries.
Ball in Hand: is one and the same as Ball in Hand Behind the Line. Or can be represented as; BIH/BTL or once clarified then BIH.
Thanks, for the comment! Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 07-01-2019 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 06-30-2019, 01:39 PM
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Ball in Hand Fouls: interfering with a cue ball in motion, with ball in hand placement / disturbing a ball, and we have discussed in length the placing of the hand in a pocket to catch a ball, and in this instance the cue ball would apply.

In reference to this I am just wondering if interfering with the cue ball would lead to a more favorable position for the person committing the foul if cue ball is moved to the kitchen what is the ruling. does the incoming player have option of ball in hand or is it mandatory

example being

ball is on the spot and cue ball would have sold out a shot on it on a ball on the foot rail that is not available with the cue ball in the kitchen
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Old 06-30-2019, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catkins View Post
Ball in Hand Fouls: interfering with a cue ball in motion, with ball in hand placement / disturbing a ball, and we have discussed in length the placing of the hand in a pocket to catch a ball, and in this instance the cue ball would apply.

In reference to this I am just wondering if interfering with the cue ball would lead to a more favorable position for the person committing the foul if cue ball is moved to the kitchen what is the ruling. does the incoming player have option of ball in hand or is it mandatory

example being

ball is on the spot and cue ball would have sold out a shot on it on a ball on the foot rail that is not available with the cue ball in the kitchen
I think we are talking about the option of shooting from where the balls lie or BIH.
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