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  #21  
Old 01-31-2012, 08:37 AM
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I guess my faculties are too limited to discern the ethical difference between not calling a foul on yourself and instead requiring that your opponent both see it and call it versus failing to announce that a called ball didn't go as called and instead requiring that your opponent both see it and call it.

I must be missing something.
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  #22  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:20 PM
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Makes one question that person's integrity !!
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  #23  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:49 PM
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You are correct, he did make an attempt to cheat. It was foolish and should never have happened. Agreed.

You seem to want to label the kid as a thief and act as if he should be blacklisted, let's tar and feather the varmint while we are at it. I am in no way saying he was right, I just find it hard to believe that you have lived your life free of indiscretion. If that is the case, there will surely be a church with your name on the door opening soon.

I have had an error or two in judgment in my time but those situations helped me, they do not define me. I have never heard of anything like this about him in the past and I would be surprised if I do in the future. If this happens again then I will be the first in line to say you were correct in your assessment of his character, but to ostracize him for one moment of stupidity is a little far-fetched IMO.

John 8:7
K Town,

You are starting to annoy me. He did not "make an attempt to cheat", he did cheat. You still can't say it, because if you admit that he did cheat then you have to admit that he's a cheater and you can't or won't do that.

It was not "foolish", it was dishonest.

He's not a "kid", he's a man.

He is a "thief", he stole a ball and tried to steal the game. That's 2 "thieving" incidents.

We are discussing the incident in the Morra vs. SVB match, we aren't discussing my possible past indiscretions or yours either. Stay on topic.

You wouldn't have "heard" of his cheating and believed it in the past anyway, you cannot even accept it now that he did it.

This was not "one moment of stupidity", he didn't accidently drive the wrong way down a one-way street. He thought about it, heard the audience applauding (thinking he called it), weighed his chances, decided to take his chances, knew he was cheating, thought he wouldn't get caught, did get caught, fessed up ONLY when confronted by Morra & the referee. These are many more than "one moment of stupidity".

P.S. Invoking church, bible verses, and such leads me to say one final thing to you: religious jerks like you can kiss my ass. You be the one he cheated and I'll bet you change your tune, you'd be on this site crying like Roy from Norway. You've probably never come close to playing a big-money match in a tough game against a good player, if you had then you wouldn't be defending that good player when he cheats. You're just a computer-cowboy-player (like the other idiot chiming in with his stupidity) and your opinion ain't worth shit.

CD

Last edited by Cowboy Dennis; 02-01-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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  #24  
Old 01-31-2012, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Cary View Post
I guess my faculties are too limited
I agree.

Have you ever bet high in a tough game against a very good player? You can learn things like that that you can't learn in any other way.

Dennis Twain
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2012, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis View Post
I agree.

Have you ever bet high in a tough game against a very good player? You can learn things like that that you can't learn in any other way.

Dennis Twain
No, I've never been good enough to play a very good pool player. However I did once bet everything I had except the clothes I had on against a mediocre nine ball player (I was already barefoot & had lost my shoes in a fire). He took my money but left my clothes. I once (long, long ago in my misspent youth) bet five hundred 1960's dollars on myself in a bare knuckles, no rules street fight against a guy that was 5" taller than me and out weighed me by at least 100 pounds ( I won that one & have been bragging about it ever since). For several months in the mid '70s I paid the rent & bought groceries for my family by playing in a daily pot limit poker game. There were some pretty good players in that one. Good enough that I once had every dime I owned in the game and borrowed twenty to stay in. I ended the day $200 to the good but it was pretty stressful for a while. In 1968, when I was earning a little less than $700/month I bet (roughly) $3k on four queens in a jacks or better trips to win poker game (and lost**). I think $3k was pretty high back then. Do any of those count? I know they're not much but they were all memorable to me and I learned from each of them. These days I value the money I've earned over the last 40 years too much to gamble very high. Losing it gives me a throbbing headache, a fact I discovered playing blackjack about 12 years ago. What the hell, everybody gets old if they live long enough and I have, a fact which has astounded no one more than me.

**That one taught me that it is indeed possible to hold ace king and draw three more aces (I was dealing, which really made it hurt).

Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?
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Last edited by Cary; 02-01-2012 at 09:23 AM.
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2012, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Cary View Post
No, I've never been good enough to play a very good pool player. However I did once bet everything I had except the clothes I had on against a mediocre nine ball player (I was already barefoot & had lost my shoes in a fire). He took my money but left my clothes. I once (long, long ago in my misspent youth) bet five hundred 1960's dollars on myself in a bare knuckles, no rules street fight against a guy that was 5" taller than me and out weighed me by at least 100 pounds ( I won that one & have been bragging about it ever since). For several months in the mid '70s I paid the rent & bought groceries for my family by playing in a daily pot limit poker game. There were some pretty good players in that one. Good enough that I once had every dime I owned in the game and borrowed twenty to stay in. I ended the day $200 to the good but it was pretty stressful for a while. In 1968, when I was earning a little less than $700/month I bet (roughly) $3k on four queens in a jacks or better trips to win poker game (and lost**). I think $3k was pretty high back then. Do any of those count? I know they're not much but they were all memorable to me and I learned from each of them. These days I value the money I've earned over the last 40 years too much to gamble very high. Losing it gives me a throbbing headache, a fact I discovered playing blackjack about 12 years ago. What the hell, everybody gets old if they live long enough and I have, a fact which has astounded no one more than me.

**That one taught me that it is indeed possible to hold ace king and draw three more aces (I was dealing, which really made it hurt).

Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?
Not really but yes it depends on who your playing with.I've been burnt by so many "high Profile pros" that I guess they have left.. how should I put it nicely..
a bad taste in my mouth.Hope you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from.Nothing personal.And another thing,since we don't have reffs very often.I would pay to have a reff watch everyone of my matches to tell ya the truth. It's best to pay real close attention to what's going on at the table at the same time you should be in your chair watching and paying close attention.Anyway,that's the way I look at it.It's a tough world out there in the big tournys well small tournys too.Now I'm not talking about playing with your uncle joe or some kinfolk or something like that,I would cut them a little break,lol
I'm talking about playing against some struggling pool players trying to make a dime to get home on.I would think that explains it pretty good.Sorry for all the rambling on.John B.
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  #27  
Old 02-01-2012, 12:24 PM
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Are ethics a variable that change with the stakes and the level of play?
Cary,

I was just trying to determine if you did gamble, that's all. If you haven't been in the spots we are discussing then you don't know firsthand how you would feel or what you would do. You have obviously gambled in the past and can speak authoritatively about it. I just didn't feel like being jerked around by someone who's never done it, that's all.

To answer your question: My ethics don't change for anyone or anything. I don't cheat in a poolroom or in life and I've got no use for people who do. I fail to see why you bring up the "calling a foul on yourself" situation and compare it to what SVB did. There's another thread for that topic.

Let me be clear: If you are playing in an unrefereed match and the rules (tourney) state that the player in the chair is to call fouls on his opponent then it is not a violation of the rules, technically or ethically, to not call a foul on yourself. You are playing within those rules and it's disingenuous of you to say otherwise.

If you are in a refereed match then it's the referee's duty to call fouls on the shooter. In the SVB vs. Morra match the referee was taken in by the audience applause & SVB acting like he had won and unless I'm remembering wrong he dumped the balls on the table for Shane to rack. It was Morra who called the situation into question, it was the ref's job but he failed and Morra did his job, as he should.

If you are gambling then it's your opponent's duty to call fouls on you, it's that simple to me.

The reason for my asking the ???'s I asked is this, as I've said: if a person hasn't been in these type situations, whether it's "calling a foul on yourself", having a cheater for an opponent, pushing and holding the cueball to freeze it to a corner-pocket jaw, or many other things that can come up in a pool game then all they are doing by arguing about it is wasting my time. If it's only going to be an "online-intellectual excercise" then what's the point?

When two players outline the rules they will play by and then both play within those rules, nobody is doing anything wrong, ethically or any other way. I'm a little tired of you suggesting otherwise. I play within the agreed rules and have never cheated anyone in a poolroom. My standards are high when it comes to that, I will not cheat to win money. I play pool for money, not for the money.

Dennis
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2012, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
Not really but yes it depends on who your playing with.I've been burnt by so many "high Profile pros" that I guess they have left.. how should I put it nicely..
a bad taste in my mouth.Hope you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from.Nothing personal.And another thing,since we don't have reffs very often.I would pay to have a reff watch everyone of my matches to tell ya the truth. It's best to pay real close attention to what's going on at the table at the same time you should be in your chair watching and paying close attention.Anyway,that's the way I look at it.It's a tough world out there in the big tournys well small tournys too.Now I'm not talking about playing with your uncle joe or some kinfolk or something like that,I would cut them a little break,lol
I'm talking about playing against some struggling pool players trying to make a dime to get home on.I would think that explains it pretty good.Sorry for all the rambling on.John B.
John,

What is your opinion on what SVB did? Are you aware of it? Have you ever had anyone do that in a tourney?

Dennis
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  #29  
Old 02-01-2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
Not really but yes it depends on who your playing with.I've been burnt by so many "high Profile pros" that I guess they have left.. how should I put it nicely..
a bad taste in my mouth.Hope you can somewhat understand where I'm coming from.Nothing personal.And another thing,since we don't have reffs very often.I would pay to have a reff watch everyone of my matches to tell ya the truth. It's best to pay real close attention to what's going on at the table at the same time you should be in your chair watching and paying close attention.Anyway,that's the way I look at it.It's a tough world out there in the big tournys well small tournys too.Now I'm not talking about playing with your uncle joe or some kinfolk or something like that,I would cut them a little break,lol
I'm talking about playing against some struggling pool players trying to make a dime to get home on.I would think that explains it pretty good.Sorry for all the rambling on.John B.
Actually John I have an understanding and appreciation for the challenges you and all serious players face. Although I don't really know you other than from this forum, I would trust you to invariably act in an honest and honorable manner (but I'd still cut the cards 'cause I always do. Daddy said to.).

All I've questioned is if it is OK and expected to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed foul, why isn't it also OK to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed illegally pocketed ball? From a purely ethical standpoint the situations are identical, albiet there might be serious practical and financial differences.

Or not. It all depends. Maybe.
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  #30  
Old 02-01-2012, 12:42 PM
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All I've questioned is if it is OK and expected to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed foul, why isn't it also OK to take the benefit of an uncalled/unnoticed illegally pocketed ball? From a purely ethical standpoint the situations are identical, albiet there might be serious practical and financial differences.

Or not. It all depends. Maybe.
Cary,

SVB was playing by rules that say you must pocket the ball in the called pocket & in the manner (# of rails etc.) that you call. He (apparently) called it 4-rails and tried to take credit for it going 2-rails. That is a violation of the rules he was playing by.

As I wrote in my previous post, the situations are miles apart ethically or any other way.

Dennis
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