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  #11  
Old 07-19-2019, 08:36 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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I think Beatle will agree with this; If I am playing someone and he is bad enough to miscue or miss the rack, I sure do not want to loose my action by taking the break away from him. You get my point! If he does not agree to a foul and losing a pt then we will might have a problem.

The reason I decided to not award loss of break is because OP is an alternating break format, therefore if I award giving the break away then the same player will break 3 consecutive racks. Follow; he broke the game before, awarded a break, then it is turn to break once again. An alternating break format does not change the order just because a player loses their break!

It took me awhile to remember why I did not award the break in my suggestions to Steve.

Actually this very same question has come up before and not to long ago. The answer is either play the cue ball where it lies, which on a miscue will end up by the opponent's hole, or a foul and a re-break is better than giving over the break. Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 07-19-2019 at 09:25 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2019, 11:44 PM
Johnny J. Willis Johnny J. Willis is offline
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I had read somewhere that if the Q does not come in contact with the rack, the game did not start...... ???????
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2019, 12:15 AM
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unoperro unoperro is online now
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So what happens when, player owes a ball for the foul and then incoming player plays from where cue ball ends up, only to be told that's my pocket by the original breaker?
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  #14  
Old 07-20-2019, 02:18 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneakynito View Post
This isn't covered in our One Pocket rules page?

"On the break, the cue ball may contact either a cushion or any ball in the rack first, but in either case, after contacting at least one ball, an object ball must be pocketed, or the cue ball or at least one object ball must contact a rail, otherwise it is a one foul penalty. As long as a legal stroke is employed from behind the head string on the break, the incoming player must play the balls where they lie there are no re-racks for a pocket scratch or failure to contact a cushion or pocket a ball on the break."

Seems clear to me. It's obviously a foul because you didn't meet the first criteria.
And incoming player would have to play the balls as they lay. In this case, they just happen to lay still in racked position. Play the cue ball as it lies like any other table scratch.
Yes. The first phrase states the conditions necessary for a legal break; the bold phrase states that if those conditions are not met, it is a foul. All fouls end an inning. Incoming player shoots from where the CB lies.

Granted, one may contend that the game doesn't start until the balls are broken, but I think it is more logical that it starts when the first player attempts the first shot.

There may be a downside to doing it this way. There may be a way for the breaker to gain an advantage by not breaking the rack, especially if he's playing a weaker player.
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  #15  
Old 07-20-2019, 07:41 AM
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NH Steve NH Steve is offline
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Well it is certainly fair enough to go with our rules as written literally and after the breaker misses everything, they are assessed a foul penalty and the incoming shooter plays from where the balls lie. That's an unusual way to start a game but it works.

On a side note, I really like to watch Ronnie O'Sullivan (the snooker champion) for his seemingly perfect mechanics and rhythm (I wish it would rub off on me a little lol). And Snooker has some strange rules -- including the possibility of a re-rack. In Snooker, if the breaker fouls on their opening break, it is simply a foul and the opponent shoots from where the cue ball lies:

Quote:
The first player plays from in-hand, the frame commencing when the cue-ball has been placed on the table and contacted by the tip of the cue either:
(i) as a stroke is made; or
(ii) while addressing the cue-ball.

This seems clear, but is sometimes misunderstood so:

a) plays from in-hand
The first player has the ball in his hand, and places it in the "D".
b) places in the "D"
The cue ball is placed in the "D" such that the centre line of the cue ball is either within or sitting directly on the lines defining the "D"
c) a stroke is made
the player plays a stroke. He does not foul if he positions the cue ball with his cue, even the cue tip, because he is not playing a stroke. He does not foul if he knocks another ball whilst placing the cue ball, because he is not playing a stroke.
d) while addressing the cue ball
If he has placed the cue ball and is addressing and accidentally touches it, he has fouled
e) fails to contact a Red
If he fails to first contact a Red ball on his stroke, he has fouled

If he has fouled, the table is not reset and the frame is not restarted; play simply continues from the resulting position of his foul.
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  #16  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:07 AM
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cincy_kid cincy_kid is online now
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interesting topic, I think it may have happened a time or 2 over the years in one of my game's but rare. I think we always played if the guy miscues, you give him the ball back to start again (game doesn't start until the balls are contacted), but I certainly see the other side of it and the literal meaning on our current rules.

This will be one of those other things you talk about before starting your match lol.

- ok, whole ball or half?
- 2 balls moved = foul?
- rerack if make ball on break?
- rack your own?
- any ball off the table = foul?
- 3 foul rule?
- re-break on a break if you don't hit a ball?

I am kinda kidding but every time I play someone we always go over those bullet point questions. Not sure any why around it outside of a tournament where they have rules for each one, but for matching up/gambling, I cant see how it can be avoided.
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  #17  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:54 AM
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gulfportdoc gulfportdoc is offline
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At the DCC there are distinct differences between a legal break for 9-ball and one-pocket.

In 9-ball:

A legal break requires you to strike the head ball first and drive at least one object ball past the side pockets. If your break is illegal, the opponent may either accept the table in position or require you to break again.

In one-pocket:

A legal break requires you to pocket a ball or drive at least one object ball or the cue ball to a cushion after contact. Failure to do so is a foul.


If a player misses the whole rack in 1P, or never gets there due to a miscue, then I favor assessing a penalty (owes a ball), and the incoming player starts from where the CB lays.

However it might also be worth considering some combination of the above two rules. For example, the opponent could be allowed to refuse or accept the new position. If he doesn't accept, then the original breaker re-breaks and will be assessed a 1 ball penalty. Or if the incoming player does accept the table position (e.g. he has an advantage by doing so), then the original breaker is not assessed a penalty.

There may be other viable combination rules as well. These would only be in force for the opening break shot of any rack.

~Doc
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  #18  
Old 07-20-2019, 11:40 AM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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We have completely gone through this question before. So much so that I remember purposely doing a miscue to see where the cue ball ends up. The miscue is of course upon the inside of the cue ball so it sends the cue ball down by the opponents hole, or thereabouts but nonetheless on the wrong side of the untouched rack of balls.
Therefore it is not such an easy situation to start from. Any contact of the undisturbed rack from the opponents side will put ball(s) towards the wrong hole.

Doc eludes to this in his astute comment. So do we want to start a game off this way (play cue ball where it lies in a possible disadvantage position) when it happens, or assess a foul and a re-break, or present an option to accept the table as it lies.

A solution is, if this works; On the break shot the rack must be contacted to start a game, otherwise it is a foul, w/ the incoming player having the option to either accept the table as is, or have the breaker re-break. Thanks Doc, Whitey

-----------------------------

Next problem once a decision is made upon the above, is dealing with the incomplete thought within the rule which is; dealing with an illegal placement of the cb and the cb being illegally stroked! What is the resulting penalty, and action? Possibly, Bobt64 could start yet another question thread dealing with this.

Another rare occasion but nonetheless could happen. Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 07-20-2019 at 12:33 PM.
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  #19  
Old 07-21-2019, 02:49 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Doc & Steve,
I have developed a rule writing that will cover when the cb does not contact the rack, and when the cb is illegally place and/or illegally stroke.
-----------
Break:
When the cue ball is illegally placed, and/or illegally stroked, or does not make contact with the rack, it is a foul resulting in the incoming player having the option to either accept the table as is, or requiring the breaker to re-break.
-----------
How does that would for you guys? Whitey
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  #20  
Old 07-21-2019, 08:06 PM
beatle beatle is online now
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i like that rule. if its a big game and he hits a terrific break i will claim his cueball was placed illegally and he has to break over again.

you cant call a cueball placed wrong after the shot. its up to you as the referee to tell him before the shot. unless you just want an argument.

every time you add a new rule you also add a couple of problems to go with it.

ive played thousands of games of one pocket all for decent or big money and never once can remember an argument over any of these things that people want to make new rules over.
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