Appleton vs. Pete?

gulfportdoc · Aug 17, 2010

Evidently Darren Appleton and "Dipsh*t" Dave Pete are discussing a 1P match for $50K in London on 9-11, where Dave gets 16-4.

It's unlikely that this contest will occur, but if so, and it's legit, I'd have to favor DD. What do y'all think? Billy? Lenny?

It's not out of the realm of possibility that DA/DD are in cahoots...

Doc

SJDinPHX · Aug 17, 2010

gulfportdoc said:
Evidently Darren Appleton and "Dipsh*t" Dave Pete are discussing a 1P match for $50K in London on 9-11, where Dave gets 16-4.

It's unlikely that this contest will occur, but if so, and it's legit, I'd have to favor DD. What do y'all think? Billy? Lenny?

It's not out of the realm of possibility that DA/DD are in cahoots...

Doc

Doc,

Anythings possible I guess...But of all the people I know in this business, Daz would be the very last person I would suspect of doing ANYTHING...with ANYBODY, for ANY amount.

He would not even be a party to a "publicity" match, with any sleazy character like Dippy has proven to be.

jrhendy · Aug 17, 2010

gulfportdoc said:
Evidently Darren Appleton and "Dipsh*t" Dave Pete are discussing a 1P match for $50K in London on 9-11, where Dave gets 16-4.

It's unlikely that this contest will occur, but if so, and it's legit, I'd have to favor DD. What do y'all think? Billy? Lenny?

It's not out of the realm of possibility that DA/DD are in cahoots...

Doc

There was mention of this on an az action thread that they have already played a few sets before and Daz won. Don't know the amount or spot.

timdog24 · Aug 17, 2010

gulfportdoc said:
Evidently Darren Appleton and "Dipsh*t" Dave Pete are discussing a 1P match for $50K in London on 9-11, where Dave gets 16-4.

It's unlikely that this contest will occur, but if so, and it's legit, I'd have to favor DD. What do y'all think? Billy? Lenny?

It's not out of the realm of possibility that DA/DD are in cahoots...

Doc

Dave came to NYC last week. I watched him play a lot, got to play him myself, and I think he might have the best of it going to 4. I don't know how Daz plays one hole though. Dippy can't run balls but knows how to play. Ginky gave him 15-4 and it was awful tough for him (broke even). But Ginky is not a top tier one hole player. No one in NYC is.

Fast Lenny · Aug 17, 2010

I am sure I will make a small bet on this match and take Darren, this is only because I always bet on Darren except when him and Scott played. The 2 times I bet on him when he played Bartram and Hatch he ended up losing. I think Darren is a great player but honestly feel he is not an endurance player, the longer the match goes the less I like it. If you had Darren playing 10 ball or whatever playing sets to 25 or 30 I would favor him strongly, racing to 100 is another story.

If Darren plays Dippy I will like Darren if the play is under 8 hours, say 6 hours of play, but that will be unlikely and the longer they play the tougher it will get for Darren to get all those balls, 16 balls every game can wear the best down while your opponent will most likely make 4 balls easily if they are open. Dippy will get stronger the more they play IMO, Darren will get tired going 100% natural, Dippy will be eating pills like PEZ candy and play for days.

If there is no time limit Dippy will win, Darren needs to set a 6-8 hour time limit which I doubt Dippy will go for. I like Darren and his game, he is a nice guy and a Champion but I think he is lacking endurance, it might not even be physical endurance but mental endurance. This is just my opinion and I am no expert but I do book winners playing and side betting around 80% or more of the time. I would like to hear Billy's opinion on it as he might be one of the smartest gamblers I have ever met and respect his opinion on all matters.

SJDinPHX · Aug 17, 2010

Fast Lenny said:
I am sure I will make a small bet on this match and take Darren, this is only because I always bet on Darren except when him and Scott played. The 2 times I bet on him when he played Bartram and Hatch he ended up losing. I think Darren is a great player but honestly feel he is not an endurance player, the longer the match goes the less I like it. If you had Darren playing 10 ball or whatever playing sets to 25 or 30 I would favor him strongly, racing to 100 is another story.

If Darren plays Dippy I will like Darren if the play is under 8 hours, say 6 hours of play, but that will be unlikely and the longer they play the tougher it will get for Darren to get all those balls, 16 balls every game can wear the best down while your opponent will most likely make 4 balls easily if they are open. Dippy will get stronger the more they play IMO, Darren will get tired going 100% natural, Dippy will be eating pills like PEZ candy and play for days.

If there is no time limit Dippy will win, Darren needs to set a 6-8 hour time limit which I doubt Dippy will go for. I like Darren and his game, he is a nice guy and a Champion but I think he is lacking endurance, it might not even be physical endurance but mental endurance. This is just my opinion and I am no expert but I do book winners playing and side betting around 80% or more of the time. I would like to hear Billy's opinion on it as he might be one of the smartest gamblers I have ever met and respect his opinion on all matters.

Lenny,

You bring up some good points about Darren's mental endurance. He has not played up to the speed he nornally plays, (in shorter tournament matches), in most of his gambling matches.

I am also concerned about his 1P game. I don't think he should be giving up that kind of weight to anybody...He is not savvy enough yet, to realize all the pitfalls, and his 1P game is not near as strong as his rotation games...yet.

There will be NO margin for error, giving up that much weight...Daz will have to shoot the RIGHT shot EVERY time, and it might be a completely different shot from a normal 1P game... I don't like his game at all, in that spot....Dippy, ain't THAT Dippy.

Frank Almanza · Aug 17, 2010

SJDinPHX said:
Lenny,

You bring up some good points about Darren's mental endurance. He has not played up to the speed he nornally plays, (in shorter tournament matches), in most of his gambling matches.

I am also concerned about his 1P game. I don't think he should be giving up that kind of weight to anybody...He is not savvy enough yet, to realize all the pitfalls, and his 1P game is not near as strong as his rotation games...yet.

There will be NO margin for error, giving up that much weight...Daz will have to shoot the RIGHT shot EVERY time, and it might be a completely different shot from a normal 1P game... I don't like his game at all, in that spot....Dippy, ain't THAT Dippy.

You and Lenny make some good points. This Dippy guy does know what to do most times but his execution is very poor but only needing four is another story. My question is does anybody here know anything about what kind of one pocket game Darren has? Going to 16 is strong unless he has the firepower to run them when they are out there. I know how he plays other games but 1p is a different kind of animal.

gulfportdoc · Aug 17, 2010

timdog24 said:
Dave came to NYC last week. I watched him play a lot, got to play him myself, and I think he might have the best of it going to 4. I don't know how Daz plays one hole though. Dippy can't run balls but knows how to play. Ginky gave him 15-4 and it was awful tough for him (broke even). But Ginky is not a top tier one hole player. No one in NYC is.

Timdog, what kind of races and stakes were they putting up? Are there enough action backers in NY to play as high as DD likes?

I always enjoyed watch Ginky play. He has a beautiful stroke.

Doc

The Milk Man · Aug 17, 2010

Appleton has posted on his Facebook page that they are going to play on the 11th. Right before he leaves for the Philippines.

Shev

SJDinPHX · Aug 18, 2010

Frank Almanza said:
You and Lenny make some good points. This Dippy guy does know what to do most times but his execution is very poor but only needing four is another story. My question is does anybody here know anything about what kind of one pocket game Darren has? Going to 16 is strong unless he has the firepower to run them when they are out there. I know how he plays other games but 1p is a different kind of animal.

Frank,

I know Bernie Petipiece and Darren quite well. At Bernie's urging, Darren came to Phx. a week before the '09 DCC, and took 4 straight 8 hr. days, of lessons from me. His general pool mechanics, and shot-making, are champion caliber. But, as you know, you cannot learn the finer points of 1P in a few lessons (or even a few years)

I watched him get knocked out of the DCC 1P that year, by a pretty decent Chicago "squeezer" (Tom Spencer) who is NOT a "top tier" player.
Had I been able to coach Daz, Spencer would not have won a game. As it was, they went hill/hill, Spencer had the break, and laid down a fair break, but Darren squirmed out of it, and got control of the table, but a few poor shot selections, early on, cost him the game....John H. and I sweated the match...it was painful to watch.

I don't think he's played enough 1P in the ensuing years, to give himself a chance to improve. Also you cannot teach "imagination", which any good one holer will tell you, is a hugh part of the game. Darren just overlooks too many potentially game clinching traps, and has trouble evaulating some risk/reward situations.

I'll be surprised if he can give up that game , even to Dippy. But I'll sure be pulling for him...He's a class act, and a good guy.

PS..Good friend Bernie, has devoted a lot of time to his one pocket game. He's taken quite a few lessons, and played a lot of tough match-ups. He has improved rapidly. I would have to say, Bernie could give Darren a tough go for the cash right now, playing even 1P..... 9 or 10 ball...different story.

gulfportdoc · Aug 18, 2010

Good post, Dick. I didn't realize that you had given Appleton lessons. There's no question that a good spatial imagination is integral in 1P. The DA/DD match is unlikely to occur, especially at 16-4. But whatever a spot might be, I'm sure Daz would be counting on running big chunks of balls.

Billy may not want to comment on DD's speed. Perhaps he feels that any remarks about DD's play might hurt potential future action match ups involving DD.

Doc

Deeman · Aug 18, 2010

SJDinPHX said:
Frank,

PS..Good friend Bernie, has devoted a lot of time to his one pocket game. He's taken quite a few lessons, and played a lot of tough match-ups. He has improved rapidly. I would have to say, Bernie could give Darren a tough go for the cash right now, playing even 1P..... 9 or 10 ball...different story.

Dick,

One of the real pleasures of DCC two years ago was meeting Bernie and seeing him play. He had a very respectable game then but knowing he has played so much against top tier players lately and having had some coaching from you makes me believe he is a real threat to a lot of players now. Darren played well, I thought, but the stuff I learned just watching him play and you guys talking showed me how little I really knew about advanced shot selection. You can learn more from listening to you, John, Billy and Grady comment on matches than a whole bookshelf of books. I guess that means I have to buy all the drinks this year!

Just don't attract as many women for me to support this time around.

My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

Speaking of personal behaviour, I was thinkiing about how such different personalities play and have success in different ways at one pocket. Bernie can give anyone 10-6 in being a gentleman but you see some pretty tightly wound guys play well. In your opinion, does that "I'll run you over you" personna a few guys have really do them any good at the table against most quality players. I mean, it seems if you can stack it up and play for rerally big money, does all that drama really effect most players and the way they play?

Can't wait for this year. We ought to sell tickets to the big match-up! I know the swagger and wolfing will be as good as the games. Will The Ghost have an entourage? Can we get this to go down in the TAR room? That way, our homebound members will be able to follow it.

DeeMan
will bring my 410K this year....

jrhendy · Aug 18, 2010

Deeman said:
Dick,

One of the real pleasures of DCC two years ago was meeting Bernie and seeing him play. He had a very respectable game then but knowing he has played so much against top tier players lately and having had some coaching from you makes me believe he is a real threat to a lot of players now. Darren played well, I thought, but the stuff I learned just watching him play and you guys talking showed me how little I really knew about advanced shot selection. You can learn more from listening to you, John, Billy and Grady comment on matches than a whole bookshelf of books. I guess that means I have to buy all the drinks this year! Just don't attract as many women for me to support this time around.

My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

Speaking of personal behaviour, I was thinkiing about how such different personalities play and have success in different ways at one pocket. Bernie can give anyone 10-6 in being a gentleman but you see some pretty tightly wound guys play well. In your opinion, does that "I'll run you over you" personna a few guys have really do them any good at the table against most quality players. I mean, it seems if you can stack it up and play for rerally big money, does all that drama really effect most players and the way they play?

Can't wait for this year. We ought to sell tickets to the big match-up! I know the swagger and wolfing will be as good as the games. Will The Ghost have an entourage? Can we get this to go down in the TAR room? That way, our homebound members will be able to follow it.

DeeMan
will bring my 410K this year....

Great post DeeMan.

I grew up playing pool just outside Los Angeles and in the early sixties when bar tables were new and there was so much action, there were so many good Mexican players around, we soon learned to leave the unknowns alone. We used to joke they wouldn't let them across the border unless they could run five racks.

The main game in the Philippines is rotation, and the imagination and shotmaking needed in that game would put them ahead of the curve playing one pocket, IMO.

Also, flying here from the Philippines is a little different than coming across to any of the border states. They didn't send all the very best but quite a few of them. The top Filipino players we are familiar with have quite a bit more knowledge and experience with a tougher game than most of our top players and seem to take to one pocket very easily. A rotation game with 15 balls is just harder to master than 9 or 10 ball, with much more imagination needed which converts easily to learning one pocket. Now you add in the popularity of high level pool in the Philippines compared to what is here and you have another reason they have adapted to one pocket so well.

By the way, I started playing one pocket on a snooker table with Dado (A Filipino) around 1956, Wish I would have paid more attention while I eas blowing my cash.

Look forward to seeing you at The Derby.

SJDinPHX · Aug 18, 2010

Deeman said:
Dick,

One of the real pleasures of DCC two years ago was meeting Bernie and seeing him play. He had a very respectable game then but knowing he has played so much against top tier players lately and having had some coaching from you makes me believe he is a real threat to a lot of players now. Darren played well, I thought, but the stuff I learned just watching him play and you guys talking showed me how little I really knew about advanced shot selection. You can learn more from listening to you, John, Billy and Grady comment on matches than a whole bookshelf of books. I guess that means I have to buy all the drinks this year! Just don't attract as many women for me to support this time around.

My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

Speaking of personal behaviour, I was thinkiing about how such different personalities play and have success in different ways at one pocket. Bernie can give anyone 10-6 in being a gentleman but you see some pretty tightly wound guys play well. In your opinion, does that "I'll run you over you" personna a few guys have really do them any good at the table against most quality players. I mean, it seems if you can stack it up and play for rerally big money, does all that drama really effect most players and the way they play?

Can't wait for this year. We ought to sell tickets to the big match-up! I know the swagger and wolfing will be as good as the games. Will The Ghost have an entourage? Can we get this to go down in the TAR room? That way, our homebound members will be able to follow it.

DeeMan
will bring my 410K this year....

Deeman,

I'm sure Ghosty will have the all Chicago homey's cheering him on...whether they will bet actual cash money on him, (over a small sympathy bet)...is another story...The window will be open. (or at least slightly ajar).

Looking forward to seeing you again...Drinks are on me this time. (don't forget to bring Deewomen.

)

PS..I guess "drama" and "woofing" effects everybody differently...The Beardmonster and I seem to love it though. (Please don't tell him what a "babe-magnet" I am,...In case you haven't noticed, he is a little tense on that subject right now.

)

PPS..I know I can out-woof the Ghost---outplaying him may be a little tougher..

(Ghosty, have you sent your $3.00 forfeit money to Booth yet ?)

'Rarin' to go' Duck

SJDinPHX · Aug 18, 2010

Deeman said:
Speaking of personal behaviour, I was thinkiing about how such different personalities play and have success in different ways at one pocket. Bernie can give anyone 10-6 in being a gentleman ?

Correction Deeman, Cool as he is, Bernie cannot give John H. 10-6 in the gentleman dept. (However, he can give almost anybody from Chicago...38 to 3..

)

Deeman · Aug 18, 2010

SJDinPHX said:
Correction Deeman, Cool as he is, Bernie cannot give John H. 10-6 in the gentleman dept. (However, he can give almost anybody from Chicago...38 to 3.. )

LOL, Well, I have to agree John is also a gentleman but I'll take it from you on the Chicago Gang. You know, Alphonse Capone didn't get to where he did, Prison and syphlisis, by being a nice guy.

It is strage that all the folks form Chi Town that make the papers are defending themsleves from lawsuits, avoiding prison for corruption or are President. Just Kidding, Chicago, I know several folks from there that are honest law abiding citizens, just can't name them right now.

gulfportdoc · Aug 18, 2010

Deeman said:
My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

John pretty much answered the question. But I think the key to Filipinos adapting well to 1P is cueball control. There is a proud tradition of rotation over there, although I'm not sure it's played nearly as much today. And one-pocket is not played much at all. Helfert said if one wants to play 1P over there, they damn near have to play Efren.

But the fact is that rotation players, 8-ballers, and --even more so-- straight pool players are going to be able to maneuver the CB in much tighter quarters than are 9-ball players.

Another possible reason is that presumably the standards are much higher for performance over there. There are probably loads of youngsters who are dying to learn to play well, who either can't afford to play, or when they can play they play on crappy equipment. All that leads to a yearning to play at the highest levels they can.

Doc

Deeman · Aug 19, 2010

gulfportdoc said:
John pretty much answered the question. But I think the key to Filipinos adapting well to 1P is cueball control. There is a proud tradition of rotation over there, although I'm not sure it's played nearly as much today. And one-pocket is not played much at all. Helfert said if one wants to play 1P over there, they damn near have to play Efren.

But the fact is that rotation players, 8-ballers, and --even more so-- straight pool players are going to be able to maneuver the CB in much tighter quarters than are 9-ball players.

Another possible reason is that presumably the standards are much higher for performance over there. There are probably loads of youngsters who are dying to learn to play well, who either can't afford to play, or when they can play they play on crappy equipment. All that leads to a yearning to play at the highest levels they can.

Doc

Doc,

I pretty much agree. I spent a lot of time with some of the Philipino players, thanks to Ace's wife being from there and attracting them all with her great cooking. You gotta cxome up to our room next DCC!

They tell me it is a little like when I was younger and you had to sit for hours at the Boy's Club in Memphis to get one shot at playing. You lose, you may not play again for a day or so the lines were so long. There were no video game distractions and such. Rotation does, as you say, teach great position but even at that, I think they just hunger to play and tthe competition at all levels is pretty high. In a country where everyone knows Efren it is easier to stay focused if you are poor with little other distractions.

It is kinda like baseball in the 1940 and 1950's here. Everyone plays, the average player is very, very good and the rewards, in context to our country now, were great. Go watch an average high school baseball game now, few basic skiils developed, little real game knowledge. I see kids that are in their 6th year oof playing ball and still don't know where to go when a ball is hit, unimaginable in earlier times. Same with pool here, a lot of bangers but little serious play in most average pool halls for the bulk of the young players. Kids with $600 sticks that can't run three balls! Too much play on bar size tables. No snooker played anymore to develop soft strokes, etc.

DeeMan

gulfportdoc · Aug 20, 2010

According to Darren Appleton the 1P match is all set up with Dipsh*t. Now the action might shift to the odds on whether the Dipsh*tster will show up... ~Doc

"...yeah maybe few players from america can come up north to play me before mosconi cup..

match is 100% arranged with dippy

min £50,000 per player...

Rileys,Barnsley in north of england
11th sept 4pm start uk time
16-4 handicap
diamond table"

Cowboy Dennis · May 22, 2011

SJDinPHX said:
Frank,

I know Bernie Petipiece and Darren quite well. At Bernie's urging, Darren came to Phx. a week before the '09 DCC, and took 4 straight 8 hr. days, of lessons from me. His general pool mechanics, and shot-making, are champion caliber. But, as you know, you cannot learn the finer points of 1P in a few lessons (or even a few years)

I watched him get knocked out of the DCC 1P that year, by a pretty decent Chicago "squeezer" (Tom Spencer) who is NOT a "top tier" player.
Had I been able to coach Daz, Spencer would not have won a game. As it was, they went hill/hill, Spencer had the break, and laid down a fair break, but Darren squirmed out of it, and got control of the table, but a few poor shot selections, early on, cost him the game....John H. and I sweated the match...it was painful to watch.

I don't think he's played enough 1P in the ensuing years, to give himself a chance to improve. Also you cannot teach "imagination", which any good one holer will tell you, is a hugh part of the game. Darren just overlooks too many potentially game clinching traps, and has trouble evaulating some risk/reward situations.

I'll be surprised if he can give up that game , even to Dippy. But I'll sure be pulling for him...He's a class act, and a good guy.

PS..Good friend Bernie, has devoted a lot of time to his one pocket game. He's taken quite a few lessons, and played a lot of tough match-ups. He has improved rapidly. I would have to say, Bernie could give Darren a tough go for the cash right now, playing even 1P..... 9 or 10 ball...different story.

I don't intend to waste wordspace in my other post so I'll quote this instead. SJD has referenced his lessons given to Appleton in more than one thread on this site.

Dennis

Appleton vs. Pete?

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