Kiss Angles

gulfportdoc said:

Dudley, I too am a student; especially at banks. But these kiss situations come up continually in 1P play. I learned first from Grady, and now from Beard. Freddy is bestowing some very important points upon us.

I have Beard's excellent book, and vol. 1 of his DVD. Now I'm going to have to buy the vol. 2 just to get the kiss angles discussion.

BTW, I've inquired over at the Billiard Forum on AZ to see if anyone has systems for kisses in 2 or 3 rail banks. We'll see...

Doc

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What About playing one pocket banks with 3 balls?????

gulfportdoc said:

Dudley, I too am a student; especially at banks. But these kiss situations come up continually in 1P play. I learned first from Grady, and now from Beard. Freddy is bestowing some very important points upon us.

I have Beard's excellent book, and vol. 1 of his DVD. Now I'm going to have to buy the vol. 2 just to get the kiss angles discussion.

BTW, I've inquired over at the Billiard Forum on AZ to see if anyone has systems for kisses in 2 or 3 rail banks. We'll see...

Doc

Click to expand...

doc what would grady say about the three shots freddy put up. in each one of the three the q ball does not go past the object ball into the corner pocket. therefore as i remember if you try to hit it with inside english there would be a kiss in all three. is that not correct? and freddy with your system does it matter what enlish you use on the q ball. i have all of you books and dvds so i can go look it up but if you reply it saves me some time .( i guess i need to study your material some more freddy)

lll said:

doc what would grady say about the three shots freddy put up.

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Well I'd guess that Grady would agree with Freddy. If there's a kiss in any shot, it's irrefutable. It's going to be the same result no matter who's explaining it. Although I suspect Grady might visualize kiss potentials differently.

I just looked at Beard's Vol. 1, Banks That Don't Go-- But Do. Freddy covers the subject very nicely.

As for the other questions, Freddy would have to comment.

Doc

Center ball, no english

Center ball, no english

lll said:

doc what would grady say about the three shots freddy put up. in each one of the three the q ball does not go past the object ball into the corner pocket. therefore as i remember if you try to hit it with inside english there would be a kiss in all three. is that not correct? and freddy with your system does it matter what enlish you use on the q ball. i have all of you books and dvds so i can go look it up but if you reply it saves me some time .( i guess i need to study your material some more freddy)

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When I say no kiss, I mean you can use center ball, no english and beat it. When i say kiss, that means you must make an unnatural english adjustment to have a chance of beating it. Use the three examples I put up as a standard. Since there are a jillion angles to consider and it would be impossible to catalog all of them, just keep in mind these 3 and make the necessary adjustments based on the angle that you are currently dealing with.

the Beard

thanks. will start rereading your books freddy

I've sent some smoke signals out to Bob Jewett and Patrick Johnson. Perhaps we'll get some more discussion re multi-rail banks kisses.

Doc

androd said:

Senor' I've used your example to demonstrate what I was trying to say without putting up an layout. One mans opinion, but has worked well for me. After I learned this I was comfortable shooting many banks that I ducked before.<---Rod.----3 examples in layout.[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@3AJLt3EEmm4POaI3QSSv4kOaI3kDhE3kSCuzc2qQtFA_is_safe&B_is_dangerous&see_page_2_for_example&ZZ@3AJLt4EdOt4POaI3QSSv3RXIu4kOaI3kIGJ7kWrvzc2qQtFA_is_safe&B_is_dangerous&see_page_2_for_example&ZZ@3APgY4EdOt3PHvU3QSrw3kHvU3kNLh7kSrvzc2qQtFA_is_safe&B_is_dangerous&see_page_2_for_example&ZZ2rHOFpage_3_a_straight_in_is_not_close_to_a_kiss&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

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That's right, the more I think about it the more I seem to remember that you gave me that little nugget of information.

In case you readers haven't figured it out yet, Rod is full of useful nuggets of info.

gulfportdoc said:

I've sent some smoke signals out to Bob Jewett and Patrick Johnson. Perhaps we'll get some more discussion re multi-rail banks kisses.

Doc

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Don't look at me; I'm completely obtuse about figuring kiss angles.

But I can think of some interesting things about the OB/pocket line and what it might mean for kisses on one rail banks:

A couple of key facts:

1. Whether or not there's a kiss is determined by:
- the distance the OB travels to the banking rail
- the distance (after impact) the CB travels to the other rail
- the relative speeds of the balls

2. The ob/pocket line is determined by those two distances, and the relative speeds of the two balls are deternined by which side of that line the CB is on.

What they might mean:

I have a suspicion that when the CB is on the OB/pocket line and it hits the OB at stun, the speeds of the balls are about the same ratio as the distances they travel to the rails.

So I suspect that the reason the OB/pocket line is important is that it's a dividing line between thin enough to be safe from the kiss and fat enough to start getting dangerous.

When the CB is on the thinner side of the OB/pocket line its relative speed is greater so it gets out of the OB's path quickly and there is less likelihood of a kiss.

But when the CB is on the fatter side of the OB/pocket line its relative speed is less so it doesn't get out of the OB's path as quickly and there is more likelihood of a kiss.

[cuetable]@3ANkH1BAVE4CATW1KOAM4QATW1ROAM3UNkH3UbJW4UbKg1VAVE2VbBi1Vath4WATW3WaMe1fOAM2fYne3qMTTthinner_side&CB_faster&kiss_less_likely&ZZ3rAmTfatter_side&CB_slower&kiss_more_likely&ZZ1sDMithinner_side&CB_faster&kiss_less_likely&ZZ1tNbifatter_side&CB_slower&kiss_more_likely&ZZ@[/cuetable]

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson said:

Don't look at me; I'm completely obtuse about figuring kiss angles. But I can think of some interesting things about the OB/pocket line and what it might mean for kisses on one rail banks:

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Good reasoning, Patrick. What I'm curious about is under what circumstances is there a kiss following both the CB and OB rebounding off their respective cushions. Your thoughts address a potential kiss as the CB immediately rolls into the kiss zone, to meet the OB coming off its cushion.

Your points might be useful for common 2-railer situations, similar to this example. This might be one of your "fatter" side shots. ~Doc
[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1OWwS4PVyo3Qchu1jWwS1jcPL1jVdp1jQVF4kVyo1kWPK1kQtp@[/CUETABLE]

Update

Update

I got this regarding kiss angles from Bob Jewett over at the Billiard forum on AZ:

"At 3-cushion you are far less interested in where the first object ball is going, so you have a lot more latitude to get out of the kiss. The best advice I've seen for 3-C kisses is to decide which ball is going to cross the intersection first. If you can't figure that out, consider a different shot.

Whether there is a kiss under the condition you show above depends on the spin and speed, of course. I wrote an article about simple rolling banks and kisses several years ago -- see the BD article archive."

I think Bob points out a big difference between banking at 3C in contrast to 1P or bank pool. In pool there's a very narrow lane for banking, simply because the OB has to end up in the proper spot; whereas that situation is much less important in 3C.

Still, I'm sure there are similar applications in many situations. I'm going to investigate Bob's article, as soon as I can find it.

Doc

gulfportdoc said:

I got this regarding kiss angles from Bob Jewett over at the Billiard forum on AZ:

"At 3-cushion you are far less interested in where the first object ball is going, so you have a lot more latitude to get out of the kiss. The best advice I've seen for 3-C kisses is to decide which ball is going to cross the intersection first. If you can't figure that out, consider a different shot.

Whether there is a kiss under the condition you show above depends on the spin and speed, of course. I wrote an article about simple rolling banks and kisses several years ago -- see the BD article archive."

I think Bob points out a big difference between banking at 3C in contrast to 1P or bank pool. In pool there's a very narrow lane for banking, simply because the OB has to end up in the proper spot; whereas that situation is much less important in 3C.

Still, I'm sure there are similar applications in many situations. I'm going to investigate Bob's article, as soon as I can find it.

Doc

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Well I am much more of a one pocket player than a three cushion player, but when I play three cushion, I am rarely having problems with the "first rail" kisses -- I recognize those from banking in One Pocket -- it is the later 2-3-4 rail kisses that are so disheartening in billiards (especially right as your cue ball is closing in for the score).

But if you find his article, that would be great.

Bob Jewett's article

Bob Jewett's article

This is from Bob's July, 1999 article in "Billards Digest":

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1999-07.pdf

That's a pretty decent coverage of 1-rail bank kisses. And it somewhat discusses both prevailing rules of thumb. But Steve, I'm with you. I'd like to understand kiss potential better in 2 and 3-rail banks. I doubt that anyone has ever covered the subject.

Even though a 3C billiard shooter has far wider latitude in directing an OB away from a potential kiss, it seems to me that advanced players would want to know when there's kiss potential in a shot. Otherwise, why would they attempt to direct the first OB away from the natural line?

For that reason, I assume that some wizened old Belgian billiard author has addressed the subject. Maybe there is such a treatise-- written in FRENCH!

Doc