Getting Out Of The Trap

scott frost needs one
its preacher rons shot
watch this
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63itJ9RCnks[/ame]

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Good shot...but

Good shot...but

....this is similar to a straight pool situation where you would first take two deliberate scratches in the corner pocket. If your oppo takes two back at you, then you launch your kick at the ball with 4 balls now on the spot. If you scratch again, you lose. If you dont get safe, you might lose. But you also might get to stay alive even if you sell out the ball by the pocket, because he now needs three and the balls arent open. Same basic situation as kicking at it on the first shot, except now you have taken out a little insurance before shooting the give-up shot.

Because the angle is a little tight to execute the kick and not be blocked by the spotted balls, another option would be to still take the two scratches. If he takes 2 back, on your 3rd shot you would thin the ball facing you on the long rail, trying to bring the cue ball back to the same long rail you started from, hoping for a snooker with the ball by the side pocket. If you dont complete the snooker you might get another chance anyway, because he would now need 3 balls to win.

If he doesnt cooperate and refuses to take a scratch or scratches, along with you, then he would have to try to do something with the ball by the opposite long rail, probably try to bank it to his pocket. Not such an easy shot considering the position he had you in the shot before. Plus, there is now a ball on the spot from your previous deliberate scratch, that he has to try to play safe off of -- which is very difficult -- if he chooses to try the bank.

At its best, none of this is very wonderful for you, but remember you started out from a near impossible situation, and by using your head, you give yourself a chance.

Incidentally, these options are much better chance percentage wise, than the miracle 100 to 1 shot that Ronn chose and happened to make.

Final option, and what I would do to defend against all the above happening if I was Scott Frost:
If Ronn table scratched, I would take one scratch back. One only. This would put two balls up on the spot. This would allow Scott to play with impunity the loose ball across from him on the long rail. (If this happens, indicating that your oppo can think as deeply as you, you need to find a different opponent.



Beard

These are the kind of mental calisthenics that you should have to go thru if you want to become a serious one pocket player. I think, therefore I am ( a one pocket player).

fred bentivegna said:

....this is similar to a straight pool situation where you would first take two deliberate scratches in the corner pocket. If your oppo takes two back at you, then you launch your kick at the ball with 4 balls now on the spot. If you scratch again, you lose. If you dont get safe, you might lose. But you also might get to stay alive even if you sell out the ball by the pocket, because he now needs three and the balls arent open. Same basic situation as kicking at it on the first shot, except now you have taken out a little insurance before shooting the give-up shot.

Because the angle is a little tight to execute the kick and not be blocked by the spotted balls, another option would be to still take the two scratches. If he takes 2 back, on your 3rd shot you would thin the ball facing you on the long rail, trying to bring the cue ball back to the same long rail you started from, hoping for a snooker with the ball by the side pocket. If you dont complete the snooker you might get another chance anyway, because he would now need 3 balls to win.

If he doesnt cooperate and refuses to take a scratch or scratches, along with you, then he would have to try to do something with the ball by the opposite long rail, probably try to bank it to his pocket. Not such an easy shot considering the position he had you in the shot before. Plus, there is now a ball on the spot from your previous deliberate scratch, that he has to try to play safe off of -- which is very difficult -- if he chooses to try the bank.

At its best, none of this is very wonderful for you, but remember you started out from a near impossible situation, and by using your head, you give yourself a chance.

Incidentally, these options are much better chance percentage wise, than the miracle 100 to 1 shot that Ronn chose and happened to make.

Final option, and what I would do to defend against all the above happening if I was Scott Frost:
If Ronn table scratched, I would take one scratch back. One only. This would put two balls up on the spot. This would allow Scott to play with impunity the loose ball across from him on the long rail. (If this happens, indicating that your oppo can think as deeply as you, you need to find a different opponent.



Beard

These are the kind of mental calisthenics that you should have to go thru if you want to become a serious one pocket player. I think, therefore I am ( a one pocket player).

Click to expand...

heres a picture of the layout freddie's excellent analysis is discussing

Excellent advice -- I agree with Freddy. I remember a few years back at DCC when Rafael Martinez used that exact strategy to survive a near impossible situation like that -- i.e he was corner hooked on a ball near his opponent's pocket (game ball). He scratched once, his opponent scratched once, then Rafael kicked at the ball near his opponent's pocket, which he managed to move away and lived to wrestle the game out from there.

Now this is truly instructive. I would never have thought of this myself. How priveleged we are to have teachers like Freddie willing to give up the knowledge they've accumulated over a lifetime. I rememer an old player from my youth who was of the Ralph Greenleaf era. He was so tight with his knowledge that he alway took his warmup strokes on one part of the cue ball but when he pulled the trigger, he would hit another part of it just so he didn't give away any free knowledge.

Brings back memories...

Brings back memories...

petie said:

Now this is truly instructive. I would never have thought of this myself. How priveleged we are to have teachers like Freddie willing to give up the knowledge they've accumulated over a lifetime. I rememer an old player from my youth who was of the Ralph Greenleaf era. He was so tight with his knowledge that he alway took his warmup strokes on one part of the cue ball but when he pulled the trigger, he would hit another part of it just so he didn't give away any free knowledge.

Click to expand...

...years back when I thought someone was "casing" how I was going to play an important shot, I would do just that. Aim high, hit low, center ball, switch to english, etc. ('cause that's what they did to me)

I just returned from my game room, and set up and shot, the described situation.
I kicked out of the corner with balls on the spot, six times. I got out of the trap every time. (So the spotted balls did not block the kick.) I either made the ball in the pocket (3 times), kicked it away (twice), and finally, one kick ran long but not long enough, and bobbled in the pocket; but the cue ball got lucky and kicked it safe from behind. That was probably an overly fortunate set of events, but it does show you what can happen.

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

....

Final option, and what I would do to defend against all the above happening if I was Scott Frost:
If Ronn table scratched, I would take one scratch back. One only. This would put two balls up on the spot. This would allow Scott to play with impunity the loose ball across from him on the long rail. (If this happens, indicating that your oppo can think as deeply as you, you need to find a different opponent.



Beard

These are the kind of mental calisthenics that you should have to go thru if you want to become a serious one pocket player. I think, therefore I am ( a one pocket player).

Click to expand...

could you expand on the difference of you taking only one scratch if frost instead ot 2 and how that gives you "impunity" on the loose ball
thanks

Larry.. if I remerber correctly ..that same exact shot came up for me and Rod yesterday..Rod could probably exspound ..My office called right around then and i had to bail out ( I was the one hooked )

The first time I saw this shot was 2 weeks ago on a friends I-phone. He had shown it to another friend of ours and they set it up and the other friend made it the first two tries.

I did explain it...

I did explain it...

Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
....
Final option, and what I would do to defend against all the above happening if I was Scott Frost:
If Ronn table scratched, I would take one scratch back. One only. This would put two balls up on the spot. This would allow Scott to play with impunity the loose ball across from him on the long rail.
Beard

lll said:

could you expand on the difference of you taking only one scratch if frost instead ot 2 and how that gives you "impunity" on the loose ball
thanks

Click to expand...

...or so I thought.
I will be Frost. If Ronn takes the first scratch and I (Scott) dont take one, the only thing I can do is shoot at the loose ball across from me, by the long rail. Ronn had to put up a ball, so there is now a loose, shootable, makeable, ball on the spot. If I shoot at the original loose ball and try to bank it, it will be very difficult to leave the cue ball back on that side of the table where Ronn wouldnt have a shot at the single ball on the spot.
That's why I said I would take ONE scratch, which would put TWO balls up on the spot, and when Ronn takes his second scratch, (there would be 3 balls up there now) I could go ahead and shoot the bank and wouldnt worry about leaving the cue ball on that same side of the table.

Beard

freddy
ive had my coffee and your excellent explanation makes it clear

MARK..HOU TX said:

Larry.. if I remerber correctly ..that same exact shot came up for me and Rod yesterday..Rod could probably exspound ..My office called right around then and i had to bail out ( I was the one hooked )

Click to expand...

Mark , always like to hear Rod's thoughts.
btw hope you are steadily feeling better

lll said:

Mark , always like to hear Rod's thoughts.
btw hope you are steadily feeling better

Click to expand...

Thanks Larry .. I did need 2 and Rod needed 1 and the only ball placement that was different was the ball righrt by the side pocket..it was on QB side of the side pocket.. so I kicked at it ..almost got it between QB and rods pocket

fred bentivegna said:

...years back when I thought someone was "casing" how I was going to play an important shot, I would do just that. Aim high, hit low, center ball, switch to english, etc. ('cause that's what they did to me)

I just returned from my game room, and set up and shot, the described situation.
I kicked out of the corner with balls on the spot, six times. I got out of the trap every time. (So the spotted balls did not block the kick.) I either made the ball in the pocket (3 times), kicked it away (twice), and finally, one kick ran long but not long enough, and bobbled in the pocket; but the cue ball got lucky and kicked it safe from behind. That was probably an overly fortunate set of events, but it does show you what can happen.

Beard

Click to expand...

When I was around Jersey Red, he always cued the ball with low left ? I believe, anyway always the same spot on the CB. It wasn't to deceive anyone that was just the way he addressed the CB.

Freddy I like your advice. I would not have thought of it. I rarely take a scratch so I'd probably kick the 1st. shot. Thanks for the insight.
Rod.

Pony

Pony

androd said:

When I was around Jersey Red, he always cued the ball with low left ? I believe, anyway always the same spot on the CB. It wasn't to deceive anyone that was just the way he addressed the CB.

Freddy I like your advice. I would not have thought of it. I rarely take a scratch so I'd probably kick the 1st. shot. Thanks for the insight.
Rod.

Click to expand...

The top room player around Bensingers for many years was Isadore "Pony" Rosen. Played all games just a hair under top speed. Beat Eddie Taylor getting 8 to 7, lost to Rags getting a ball and the break, beat Fats even. His stroke was ridiculous. In his backstroke he would pull his arm way out to the side, to the point where the cue tip looked like it was going to miss the whole cue ball entirely, and was pointing out into space. The first time I played him I thought he was an idiot, and deemed it miraculous every time the cue tip wound up contacting the cue ball.

He dropped dead shooting at the game ball playing Artie. The second player to check out playing Artie, by the way. Now that's a record that will never be broken.

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

poney rosen
He dropped dead shooting at the game ball playing Artie.

Beard

Click to expand...

no disrespect intended. R.I.P
did it go in?

Did it go in?

Did it go in?

lll said:

no disrespect intended. R.I.P
did it go in?

Click to expand...

He never got to pull the trigger.

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

The top room player around Bensingers for many years was Isadore "Pony" Rosen. Played all games just a hair under top speed. Beat Eddie Taylor getting 8 to 7, lost to Rags getting a ball and the break, beat Fats even. His stroke was ridiculous. In his backstroke he would pull his arm way out to the side, to the point where the cue tip looked like it was going to miss the whole cue ball entirely, and was pointing out into space. The first time I played him I thought he was an idiot, and deemed it miraculous every time the cue tip wound up contacting the cue ball.

He dropped dead shooting at the game ball playing Artie. The second player to check out playing Artie, by the way. Now that's a record that will never be broken.

Beard

Click to expand...

Like Denny McClain.

fred bentivegna said:

He never got to pull the trigger.

Beard

Click to expand...

Hey Freddy,do you remember any details of the game,short race,ahead set or stakes? Also do you know anything about Arties first victim,thats not how the ghost became the ghost is it.


p.s. RIP Pony

By the game...

By the game...

crystal cue said:

Hey Freddy,do you remember any details of the game,short race,ahead set or stakes? Also do you know anything about Arties first victim,thats not how the ghost became the ghost is it.


p.s. RIP Pony

Click to expand...

They were either playing $3 or $5 a game. Pony's usual stakes. The first guy who died on Artie, was playing him in the local pool hall that Artie started out in.
I dont think they were playing for much either.

In those days The Ghost stayed over on the Billiards side of Bensingers.

Beard