Squeeze or shoot?

wgcp

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long beach, mississippi
I think that over the years of my trying to learn this game, in a lot of ways shooting at questionable shots has cost me more than trying to move my way to a better layout...

So my question is how many of you prefer the AB mode, and how many prefer the Frost power way...

B

P.S. obviously I am now firmly in the squeeze mode until I get an 80% or better shot...
 

androd

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Dec 10, 2008
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New Braunfels tx.
I think that over the years of my trying to learn this game, in a lot of ways shooting at questionable shots has cost me more than trying to move my way to a better layout...

So my question is how many of you prefer the AB mode, and how many prefer the Frost power way...

B

P.S. obviously I am now firmly in the squeeze mode until I get an 80% or better shot...

I believe it's all a matter of balance. I'm a shooter, but that said I first consider the score. I must be in an awful position before I risk giving up the game. Many things I shoot at have a good % to get safe. If I can/may make a lot and not give up much I'm going. When the score is close I can play as safe or safer than most and do.
Rod.
P.S. I usually pick the spot where I win or lose, not my opponent.
 

vapros

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baton rouge, la
I'm strictly

I'm strictly

a disciple of the AB approach, until I get all the balls bunched around my pocket. From there I'm an animal. :heh

Seriously, anybody can squeeze, if they really want to, but a lot of us can't shoot. So we learn to squeeze better - some better than others. I believe that we choose to pursue our strongest game, or at least we should. In certain circumstances we switch, as Rod explained.
 

wgcp

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long beach, mississippi
That is

That is

exactly what I meant rod... I pick the place to win or lose... not my opponent... but it has taken a long time to get there, and I still don't know diddley about the game...

B
 

Dudley

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San Jose, CA
This comes down to the player.. Players should use their strengths. Moving doesn't have much benefit unless you execute well, the same thing goes for shooting.

You have to pick shots that you will execute a high percentage.

The players that thrive on squeezing are adept at freezing that cue ball in really awkward spots for their opponent. If you don't put them in trouble when you move you are just knocking the balls around.

Dudley
 
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John Brumback

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This comes down to the player.. Players should use their strengths. Moving doesn't have much benefit unless you execute well, the same thing goes for shooting.

You have to pick shots that you will execute a high percentage.

The players that thrive on squeezing are adept at freezing that cue ball in really awkward spots for their opponent. If you don't put them in trouble when you move you are just knocking the balls around.

Dudley

Very well said Dud.That's what I was going to say too.I just couldn't have said it all that good.I think that question he asked has to be left up to the player doing the shooting..or moving. JB
 

ChrisBanks

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Rochester, NY
I think that to categorize yourself can lead to the inability to analyze the table and select the shot that best fits the circumstance.

If I mentally categorize myself as a squeezer, it may lead to a bias in my shot selection. I feel that the best mentality is to be indifferent on whether to squeeze or shoot. In this way, you will assess all options without bias towards one shot or another.

This is not to be confused with execution. We cannot make the following logical assumption: He is a squeezer, therefore he squeezes better than he shoots.

It is entirely possible that he prefers to squeeze, but he shoots just as good as he squeezes. This is the reason why it is not beneficial to label yourself a squeezer or a shooter.

Consider this simple scenario, we consider John Brumback the current best banker in the world. He is playing 9-ball and has the option of either a thin cut into the corner, or a medium-easy cross-side bank. If John says to himself that he is the best banker in the world, it may make him more likely to shoot the bank. But this type of thinking is not advantageous. The only beneficial way to analyze this scenario is the percentage of pocketing the ball in either scenario. It may be that John is much more likely to pocket the thin cut.

The rationale here is to prevent any type of bias in your shot selection.
 

Cowboy Dennis

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I think that to categorize yourself can lead to the inability to analyze the table and select the shot that best fits the circumstance.

If I mentally categorize myself as a squeezer, it may lead to a bias in my shot selection. I feel that the best mentality is to be indifferent on whether to squeeze or shoot. In this way, you will assess all options without bias towards one shot or another.

This is not to be confused with execution. We cannot make the following logical assumption: He is a squeezer, therefore he squeezes better than he shoots.

It is entirely possible that he prefers to squeeze, but he shoots just as good as he squeezes. This is the reason why it is not beneficial to label yourself a squeezer or a shooter.

Consider this simple scenario, we consider John Brumback the current best banker in the world. He is playing 9-ball and has the option of either a thin cut into the corner, or a medium-easy cross-side bank. If John says to himself that he is the best banker in the world, it may make him more likely to shoot the bank. But this type of thinking is not advantageous. The only beneficial way to analyze this scenario is the percentage of pocketing the ball in either scenario. It may be that John is much more likely to pocket the thin cut.

The rationale here is to prevent any type of bias in your shot selection.

CB,

This is a very astute and well-written post. You nailed it.

I would say "don't be a squeezer or a shooter, be both and neither" but you said it just as well.

Dennis
 

wincardona

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Dallas Tx.
I think that to categorize yourself can lead to the inability to analyze the table and select the shot that best fits the circumstance.

If I mentally categorize myself as a squeezer, it may lead to a bias in my shot selection. I feel that the best mentality is to be indifferent on whether to squeeze or shoot. In this way, you will assess all options without bias towards one shot or another.

This is not to be confused with execution. We cannot make the following logical assumption: He is a squeezer, therefore he squeezes better than he shoots.

It is entirely possible that he prefers to squeeze, but he shoots just as good as he squeezes. This is the reason why it is not beneficial to label yourself a squeezer or a shooter.

Consider this simple scenario, we consider John Brumback the current best banker in the world. He is playing 9-ball and has the option of either a thin cut into the corner, or a medium-easy cross-side bank. If John says to himself that he is the best banker in the world, it may make him more likely to shoot the bank. But this type of thinking is not advantageous. The only beneficial way to analyze this scenario is the percentage of pocketing the ball in either scenario. It may be that John is much more likely to pocket the thin cut.

The rationale here is to prevent any type of bias in your shot selection.
That's exactly the point I have been trying to sell in the bank pool forum, but those guys want to squeeze, like it's the only good thing to do.:heh

Dr. Bill
 

beatle

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it is really a mathematical decision on each and every shot. you have to weigh the shot based on score, ball layout and your chances of success.
no you cant put a number on it but by thinking that way you soon learn to guess which is the best route to go on every play at the table.

that is why players should try to learn the different category of shots they shoot and what percent of the time they can make them and get position. then they can make an informed decision on which shot to shoot.
 

gulfportdoc

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Gulfport, Mississippi
That's exactly the point I have been trying to sell in the bank pool forum, but those guys want to squeeze, like it's the only good thing to do.:heh

Dr. Bill

I think that the main concern would be to win the game.:) A good rule of thumb in 9-ball is: when in doubt, shoot; in one-pocket: when in doubt, move.

Doc
who shoots when
he should move
 

fred bentivegna

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That's exactly the point I have been trying to sell in the bank pool forum, but those guys want to squeeze, like it's the only good thing to do.:heh

Dr. Bill

I cant let you just say that. You must be referring to me. You labeled me as a give-up player all my life, now suddenly I am only a squeezer? I, and you know this to be true, will, when it calls for it, shoot at the moon. In 3 of the 4 matches I won at Tunica, and I think you sweated at least one ending, I banked out, 2, 3 and 4 balls, with my opponent needing just one ball to win the match. Each instance was a controlled, aggressive run-out, with the cue ball sometimes traveling 2 and 3 rails. Dat aint squeezing.

Saturday, a match I was playing for $ was being streamed. I wasnt aware that was happening. Some members said they watched the match. If they did then they saw me win a game where I was behind 6 to I owe one. plus, I had been playing terribly earlier in that game. Still, I won the game easily by taking shots that very few players would have taken. I shot at straight backs, when I had hanger cross sides, in order to get the cue ball into the "Patch." Being so far behind I had to get very aggressive with position.

Unfortunately, for the members in the bank forum, there hasnt been enough, What Would You Do's that addressed when someone should use smart aggressive play. You see, I have a whole catalog of game busting shots that are seldom used or seen. The trick is knowing when to employ them. That is some of what I taught Jet.
 

wincardona

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it is really a mathematical decision on each and every shot. you have to weigh the shot based on score, ball layout and your chances of success.
no you cant put a number on it but by thinking that way you soon learn to guess which is the best route to go on every play at the table.

that is why players should try to learn the different category of shots they shoot and what percent of the time they can make them and get position. then they can make an informed decision on which shot to shoot.

HELLO!!

Dr. Bill
 

wincardona

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Dallas Tx.
I cant let you just say that. You must be referring to me. You labeled me as a give-up player all my life, now suddenly I am only a squeezer? I, and you know this to be true, will, when it calls for it, shoot at the moon. In 3 of the 4 matches I won at Tunica, and I think you sweated at least one ending, I banked out, 2, 3 and 4 balls, with my opponent needing just one ball to win the match. Each instance was a controlled, aggressive run-out, with the cue ball sometimes traveling 2 and 3 rails. Dat aint squeezing.

Saturday, a match I was playing for $ was being streamed. I wasnt aware that was happening. Some members said they watched the match. If they did then they saw me win a game where I was behind 6 to I owe one. plus, I had been playing terribly earlier in that game. Still, I won the game easily by taking shots that very few players would have taken. I shot at straight backs, when I had hanger cross sides, in order to get the cue ball into the "Patch." Being so far behind I had to get very aggressive with position.

Unfortunately, for the members in the bank forum, there hasnt been enough, What Would You Do's that addressed when someone should use smart aggressive play. You see, I have a whole catalog of game busting shots that are seldom used or seen. The trick is knowing when to employ them. That is some of what I taught Jet.

You referenced only games that you were behind in, excellent playing but what about games when you were ahead or tied? Seems like you may have fallen behind because of your squeezing mentality, and then when the urgency to perform was there you were forced to play the right shots, just sayin.

Dr. Bill
 

fred bentivegna

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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatle
it is really a mathematical decision on each and every shot. you have to weigh the shot based on score, ball layout and your chances of success.
no you cant put a number on it but by thinking that way you soon learn to guess which is the best route to go on every play at the table.

that is why players should try to learn the different category of shots they shoot and what percent of the time they can make them and get position. then they can make an informed decision on which shot to shoot.

HELLO!!

Dr. Bill

That's like page one of the Pool for Dummies book. (Taking nothing away from Beatle for posting the obvious.) A lot of people need the obvious. When did I ever expound anything any different?

Beard
 
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fred bentivegna

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You referenced only games that you were behind in, excellent playing but what about games when you were ahead or tied? Seems like you may have fallen behind because of your squeezing mentality, and then when the urgency to perform was there you were forced to play the right shots, That, my friend, is exactly right! just sayin.

Dr. Bill

Whether I am ahead, behind, or tied I know what the correct shot choices are--according to my ability at that time. If I am ahead or tied, my deteriorating skills dictate a good portion of what shots I choose. In the beginning of games I lean toward the squeeze because I am not altogether confident of shot execution, and see no need to push the envelope.
However, if I am well enough behind, I throw consideration of my executional ability into the shit house, and go ahead and shoot what would be the correct give-up shot for a world champion, never mind the consequences. More times than not, I surprise myself.

Beard
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Ghosttown
I think that over the years of my trying to learn this game, in a lot of ways shooting at questionable shots has cost me more than trying to move my way to a better layout...

So my question is how many of you prefer the AB mode, and how many prefer the Frost power way...

B

P.S. obviously I am now firmly in the squeeze mode until I get an 80% or better shot...


Bille....I don't know if you ever saw the long One Pocket thread/post that I've put up a couple of times over the last several years, which gives my One Pocket philosophy, and at the same time gives a partial overview of the One Pocket lessons I give...but here's a few paragraphs taken from that archived thread/post, that address your question ----->


Okay, first off I want to say that I’ve been annoyed for years by all of this clueless debating about which is right, or better, the supposed Chicago/Philly/East coast, strong defense, low risk, squeeze style of one pocket - or the so-called modern/left coast, aggressive, fire at your hole style of one pocket….Well, the two reasons this foolish debate annoys me are these...#1. I think this constantly parroted claim of there being a geographic distinction re. the two styles of play, is untrue...and #2. Because this ongoing debate speaks as if these are the only two philosophies of One Pocket play to subscribe to..:rolleyes:...when in fact, playing just one of either of these two styles, is not playing optimum One Pocket – why in the world would anyone want to limit theirselves to just one of those styles, rather than employing the full spectrum of One Pocket play?...meaning...The only correct way to play One Pocket is within a matrix whereby you are at all times ready and able to draw upon either of those two styles -> aggressive offense or lockdown/trapping defense - all depending on each specific game situation...

When playing/thinking at the very highest level of one pocket, you will have both of those two styles in your head to choose from, or combine, every time that you step to the table – and deciding which of these style's to employ, will be correctly analyzed and determined in every different inning or shot of yours at the table...

And know that to play top speed one pocket, you need to have a very high level of creativity/imagination/vision…..and you must be an excellent banker…..and you need to have extensive knowledge of kick shots, combination shots, carom shots, and multi-rail billiard angles...

Your shot choice should always be predicated on your correct analysis of several factors, the primary ones being: Table layout, ball score, match score, pocket size, table conditions - and also the One Pocket style, skill set, heart, and ego tendencies of your opponent….and of course, all shot choices must factor in your own skill set/ability…

The first thing that I tell a new One Pocket student of mine is that I can sum up my conception of how I believe correct One Pocket should be played, and what your dual-objective should be at all times, in one sentence:

Unrelenting smart, well-calculated, aggressive attacking, combined with suffocating, lock-down safety play.

In other words, every time that you step to the table (unless you have an obvious ball to make, or you're in a death trap) you should be determinedly, unrelentingly, looking to attack...but if you can’t find a viable offensive shot, then you don’t force the issue – that’s where the smart part comes in…..Instead, play a suffocating safety/put your opponent in a trap, and if that’s not possible, then at least re-position the ball layout in some way that helps your cause…i.e. move balls from near his pocket or on his side of the table to your side - tie up balls on his side, or open up balls or banking/shooting lanes on your side of the table - and/or leave him facing balls from a snookered position, jacked up, or with an awkward angle...and while doing any of this, always endeavor to leave the cueball frozen on the rail - don‘t undervalue this, it severely limits your opponents options and execution when he can only address the top of the cueball.....and also, One Pocket is not always about having the opportunity to run balls, or shoot appealing, gratifying power shots...you must also give total-focus attention to small details - and have the limitless patience and work ethic required to do this...meaning that if you have nothing else available to you for twenty straight innings other then to bunt balls, or to glance the cueball off of balls to only have it travel a few inches - then you should patiently and intently shoot these simple little shots as perfectly as you possibly can every time, striving to gain a strategic edge on your opponent in these intense miniature battles.


- Ghost
 
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fred bentivegna

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Feb 2, 2005
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chicago illinois
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket Ghost

Okay, first off I want to say that I’ve been annoyed for years by all of this clueless debating about which is right, or better, the supposed Chicago/Philly/East coast, strong defense, low risk, squeeze style of one pocket - or the so-called modern/left coast, aggressive, fire at your hole style of one pocket….Well, the two reasons this foolish debate annoys me are these...#1. I think this constantly parroted claim of there being a geographic distinction re. the two styles of play, is untrue...and #2. Because this ongoing debate speaks as if these are the only two philosophies of One Pocket play to subscribe to.....when in fact, playing just one of either of these two styles, is not playing optimum One Pocket – why in the world would anyone want to limit theirselves to just one of those styles, rather than employing the full spectrum of One Pocket play?...meaning...The only correct way to play One Pocket is within a matrix whereby you are at all times ready and able to draw upon either of those two styles -> aggressive offense or lockdown/trapping defense - all depending on each specific game situation...

When playing/thinking at the very highest level of one pocket, you will have both of those two styles in your head to choose from, or combine, every time that you step to the table – and deciding which of these style's to employ, will be correctly analyzed and determined in every different inning or shot of yours at the table...

And know that to play top speed one pocket, you need to have a very high level of creativity/imagination/vision…..and you must be an excellent banker…..and you need to have extensive knowledge of kick shots, combination shots, carom shots, and multi-rail billiard angles...

Your shot choice should always be predicated on your correct analysis of several factors, the primary ones being: Table layout, ball score, match score, pocket size, table conditions - and also the One Pocket style, skill set, heart, and ego tendencies of your opponent….and of course, all shot choices must factor in your own skill set/ability…

The first thing that I tell a new One Pocket student of mine is that I can sum up my conception of how I believe correct One Pocket should be played, and what your dual-objective should be at all times, in one sentence:

Unrelenting smart, well-calculated, aggressive attacking, combined with suffocating, lock-down safety play.

In other words, every time that you step to the table (unless you have an obvious ball to make, or you're in a death trap) you should be determinedly, unrelentingly, looking to attack...but if you can’t find a viable offensive shot, then you don’t force the issue – that’s where the smart part comes in…..Instead, play a suffocating safety/put your opponent in a trap, and if that’s not possible, then at least re-position the ball layout in some way that helps your cause…i.e. move balls from near his pocket or on his side of the table to your side - tie up balls on his side, or open up balls or banking/shooting lanes on your side of the table - and/or leave him facing balls from a snookered position, jacked up, or with an awkward angle...and while doing any of this, always endeavor to leave the cueball frozen on the rail - don‘t undervalue this, it severely limits your opponents options and execution when he can only address the top of the cueball.....and also, One Pocket is not always about having the opportunity to run balls, or shoot appealing, gratifying power shots...you must also give total-focus attention to small details - and have the limitless patience and work ethic required to do this...meaning that if you have nothing else available to you for twenty straight innings other then to bunt balls, or to glance the cueball off of balls to only have it travel a few inches - then you should patiently and intently shoot these simple little shots as perfectly as you possibly can every time, striving to gain a strategic edge on your opponent in these intense miniature battles.



You covered the subject fairly well, Ghost. I could add a few other things, but that is the stuff I get paid a fee for. But following the above certainly aint gonna hurt ya'.

Beard
 

Skin

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Sep 11, 2008
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In my view, the game boils down to one essential which strongly influences whether you win or lose. Control. Control of the cue ball, control of the shot, control of the table, control of the opponent's options, control of the score, and control of oneself. Lose control of any of those things often enough and you the lose game. The best option to chose in any situation is that which maximizes control, in my opinion.

Control is the one philosophy that transcends and includes all styles in one pocket. Every decision and shot falls under its umbrella and either serves it or undermines it.

Skin
 
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