Ruling please

Bmoretallpaul

Verified Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2018
Messages
212
I was watching a game of one pocket yesterday. Opening break, breaker miscues so badly that the cue ball barely made it past the side pocket. Didn't touch a rail, the rack, nothing but air. Nobody knew what to do. One said to break over since nothing was disturbed. Others said foul, rebreak and you owe one. Others, play it from there. Thoughts.
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
19,057
From
vero beach fl
from wpa rules
8.11 Break

A break shot is the opening shot of a match or rack, depending on the game. It happens when
the object balls have been racked and the cue ball is played from behind the head string
usually with the intent of breaking the rack apart.
....
........
the breaker stroked the cue ball
it went past the head string
to me its opponents shot and breaker owes one
since the breaker did not meet the requirements for a legal break
kind of an analogy
lets say you are playing on a 5x10 and you are trying a straight pool type break
ie clip the corner ball and go several rails back to the head rail
but when trying to clip the corner ball you missed it completely
no balls were disturbed
wouldnt that be a foul and opponents shot?
however
i know that sometimes its played the game doesnt start until the cue ball hts the rack so it would be break over.
i couldnt find a rule specifically for this situation
hopefully someone else will
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
3,922
From
Klamath Falls, Or.
Paul, you will not find a rule on this, for there is no rule written for this when this happens. I presented a rule and opened this up for discussion a year and half ago. I had one positive response at that time. And now it has actually happened in a real game.
But, 1. there is more to it than just missing the whole rack on the break, for there are 2. illegally placing the cue ball for the break. 3. Double Clutch stroking the cue ball on the break are also other illegal scenarios that could cause an 'illegal break'.

I have put a lot of thought into this, and have suggested a writing for an upgrade to our Official OP Rules. But since I did not receive back any response I withdrew it from my 2.2 rule writing suggestion, in accordance with keeping less changes within our official rules.

In our official rule 2.2 which depicts the 'break', the final sentence reads;
' As long as a legal stroke is employed from behind the head string on the break, the incoming player must play the balls where they lie-there are no re-racks for a pocket scratch or failure to contact a cushion or pocket a ball on the break'.
There are 4 key eliminates in this sentence; legal stroke, behind the line, no-re-rack, & play balls where they lie. So from this we can derive to how I finished this sentence, which would be the opposite of the above final 2.2 sentence.

***When the cue ball is; illegally placed, illegally stroked, or does not contact the rack, it is a foul, and the breaker re-racks.***

There is one big problem with this: the WPA BIH behind the Line rule does not allow an opponent to "pre-warn" the shooter when they illegally place the cue ball on or below the head string. So the BIH rule needs to also be upgraded and go back to the way we as Americans grew up playing and also played BIH, or otherwise the new suggestive break rule writing will also be flawed. Whitey
 

jtompilot

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
5,797
From
New Orleans
BCA rule 3.8

The game/break has begun when the cue ball has been struck.

If you miss cue and don’t make a legal hit it’s a foul. End of story
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
3,922
From
Klamath Falls, Or.
Of course it is a foul in any bodies book, that is not in question! The question is what should be the result of a foul for not contacting the rack on the break.

At first I thought that the opponent should then get to break, but then rationalized that that is to much of a punishment!

Therefore a foul would be assessed and the original breaker re-breaks, is fair! Whitey
 

J SCHWARZ

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2014
Messages
110
Once the cue ball is struck with the intention of hitting the stack the game has begun. It's a foul, breaker owes one and it's the incoming players shot from where the cue ball came to rest. I will argue that till the sun burns out, unless I'm in a really good game and don't want to upset my opponent. To me, there are no redues in one pocket, take your medicine and move on. It's like the kickoff of a football game, if the kicker dogs it he gets no rekick, game resume from where the ball was retrieved or from where it went out of bounds.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
3,922
From
Klamath Falls, Or.
Once the cue ball is struck with the intention of hitting the stack the game has begun. It's a foul, breaker owes one and it's the incoming players shot from where the cue ball came to rest. I will argue that till the sun burns out, unless I'm in a really good game and don't want to upset my opponent. To me, there are no redues in one pocket, take your medicine and move on. It's like the kickoff of a football game, if the kicker dogs it he gets no rekick, game resume from where the ball was retrieved or from where it went out of bounds.

I suggest you carefully read and carefully analyze the final sentence of our 2.2 Official OP Rule; where it states: *** As long as a 'legal stroke' is employed the from 'behind the head string' on the break, the incoming player must play the balls from where they lie! ***.
Therefore, a double clutch or an illegal placement would void this statement! Am I correct?

Further it states: there is no re-racks for a 'pocket scratch' or 'failure to contact a cushion' or 'pocket a ball' on the break'. *** Therefore a 'no re-rack only applies' to a 'pocket scratch' or 'no cushion' or 'no ball made' on the break***.
This no-re-rack rule does not apply when the breaker misses the whole rack entirely. Correct?
It would only apply by the stretch of the imagination, and for those that would like to read their own thoughts into the rules.

Like I originally stated there is no specific rule governing this scenario. It is always good to ask 'what if' when writing rules. What if ' the breaker misses the whole rack'? And then answer it! One simple clarification and we would not be having this discussion! Whitey
 
Last edited:

catkins

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2016
Messages
1,982
From
boulder creek ca
the original breaker has already determined the pocket so the incoming player breaking from a random spot on the board is not a huge advantage necessarily and a one ball penalty seems reasonable .
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
3,922
From
Klamath Falls, Or.
Catkins, lll, Pilot, Schwarz, I do not have a problem playing the ball where it lies if the rack is not contacted. It is a very rare instance and new territory dealing with a full rack of balls, and if your on the wrong side of the rack to get balls by your hole then we are dealing with a cat and mouse game to start off with.

But either way; a foul and a re-break, or a foul and no-re-break, the breaker is now down 1 ball, and they say that the break is worth 1-1/2 balls. So he has lost a 2/3rds. of his advantage by breaking.

We could discuss this tell hell freezes over, but it would be to no avail. For countless times rule questions have come up, and if there is not already a clear cut ruling in place then there is no conclusion to our discussions.

I have suggested that a poll needs to be taken on critical rules, otherwise what's the point if our discussions never come to fruition. A lot of times rules questions come up and yes we have already discussed them in length. A couple come to mind, and that is the BIH rule, and racking your own and scoring a ball on the break. There are others. Whitey
 

sappo

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2006
Messages
1,415
From
Tucson AZ
The breaker clearly fouled, he owes a ball and his opponent plays from where the cue ball stopped. If a shooter miscues on any shoot and fails to hit an object ball its a foul, he owes a ball and his opponent plays from where the cue ball stopped. A shot is a shot regardless if its the first shot of the game or the 71st shot of the game and the rules are the same. Whats the big issue here? K
 

tucson9ball

Verified Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2013
Messages
260
From
Tucson Arizona
Whitey,

I have to agree with others, it's a foul and incoming player shoots from where the cue ball lies. The breaking player owes a ball.
There has to be a penalty for a bad stroke/break.
The original breaker chooses their pocket, usually one where they feel more confident breaking from and possibly banking balls better to this pocket. Both of those things give them an edge.
It's not the fault of the player sitting in the chair that the breaker miscues.

Now, in a money game you can play any rules you want but for tournaments, it's a foul. Moving on..........
 

jtompilot

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
5,797
From
New Orleans
The breaker clearly fouled, he owes a ball and his opponent plays from where the cue ball stopped. If a shooter miscues on any shoot and fails to hit an object ball its a foul, he owes a ball and his opponent plays from where the cue ball stopped. A shot is a shot regardless if its the first shot of the game or the 71st shot of the game and the rules are the same. Whats the big issue here? K

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner
 

Scrzbill

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,689
From
Eagles Rest, Wa
I nominate Dennis “Whitey” Young as OPOrgs Rules Offical. Any seconds?
BTW Whitey, what was the ruling the other day on my shot. Where the guy picked up the cue ball?
A. Put the cue ball back as close as possible, any ball on the table is a legal shot from there.
B. BIH behind the line, shooting any object ball passed the line is a legal shot.
 

jtompilot

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
5,797
From
New Orleans
I nominate Dennis “Whitey” Young as OPOrgs Rules Offical. Any seconds?
BTW Whitey, what was the ruling the other day on my shot. Where the guy picked up the cue ball?
A. Put the cue ball back as close as possible, any ball on the table is a legal shot from there.
B. BIH behind the line, shooting any object ball passed the line is a legal shot.

It should be “B”
 

beatle

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
3,572
so you said its a shot as soon as the cue ball is struck. then i can corner hook the player on the break shot and force him to take a scratch or two back if i am a better player and spotting him some balls.

as long as you have a rule for everything that happens, someone will find a way to make it an angle for himself or use it to argue a point.

no one likes to play a rule nit and who wants to play in a tournament where the players are calling rules you had no idea existed on you.
 

Scrzbill

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,689
From
Eagles Rest, Wa
so you said its a shot as soon as the cue ball is struck. then i can corner hook the player on the break shot and force him to take a scratch or two back if i am a better player and spotting him some balls.

as long as you have a rule for everything that happens, someone will find a way to make it an angle for himself or use it to argue a point.

no one likes to play a rule nit and who wants to play in a tournament where the players are calling rules you had no idea existed on you.

We have always played cue ball fouls. The example you give is loss of game for unsportsmanlike conduct. Now that’s a rule that everyone knows since last century. We are sorry that rules offend you. Many of us don’t like the make a ball and spot it back up on the break rule. To me; That rule is for professionals, not amateurs. This isn’t nine ball. Do you see a school zone sign and speed up because you don’t like little kids?
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

Verified Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
3,922
From
Klamath Falls, Or.
Scrzbil, thanks for the confidence. I know you want foul's called. Like I stated it is a foul obviously, and I am ok playing it where it lies or a re-rack. I played a few OP games today by purposely miscuing and the cb ends up on the opposite side of the rack and not favorable for the opponent to get balls going towards their hole.

There are still no comments on double clutching and contacting the rack!

Bill, look on your thread of picking up the cb for my comment. It is based upon the nearest example we have in our Official Rules. Whereas when a player mistakenly moves (picks up) a ball in the misconception that the game is over. Then rule 6.1 comes into force and it has the ball replaced. Whitey
 

beatle

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
3,572
bill you misinterpreted every single thing in that last post of mine.
 

Scrzbill

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,689
From
Eagles Rest, Wa
bill you misinterpreted every single thing in that last post of mine.

I don’t think so but please let me explain what I said.
1. You said if you had the opportunity to corner hook intentionally, you would. I said that could be determined to be a game losing proposition.
2. Then you said something about people bringing up antiquated rules or such, my reply, I’m sorry rules offend you.
3. No one likes a nit. We discuss previous antiquated rules before each tournament like most tournaments, that why required participation at the players meeting is mandatory, to discuss new, and or, newly enforced rules. Sticking your hand in the pocket is one new one.
Then I pointed out a rule I disagree with to show you, there are others who disagree with rules.
No one likes speed zones that take you from 70-30 but we do it. I’m doing my best to explain the other side. I object to being called a nit because I want to follow the rules. I will play by any rules as long as a I know what they are. I will play house rules as long as both players play. No intention to cross you.
 
Top