Hard Times Billiards Sacramento CA

SactownTom

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May 31, 2004
Messages
813
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Sacramento CA
In 2005, we will be featuring a '16 player only' field for a round robin One Pocket tournament. (we might do one for 14.1 also to be determined)

Hopefully there the 16 top players in California or the west coast or even further, it all depends on who gets their money in first, but you never know.

Added money to be determined, Play will last over Friday Sat and Sunday.

Comments? suggestions?
 

NH Steve

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New Hampshire
Tom,
When I was out at HardTimes a couple of weeks ago, I got a nice long interview with Ronnie Allen (which will be up on OnePocket.org in a week or two -- and not to be missed!), he talked about keeping total ball count as part of a way to have tournament standings, to create the possibility of a "leader board", like they have in golf. I don't know how practical his idea was, and he has probably mentioned it to you anyway...

I'd imagine you plan on two or maybe three 'brackets', with players advancing based on won/lost record, and just using ball count as a tie breaker? Or are you planning on ball count being the number one determining factor?

Ronnie actually suggested that every rack be played out until all the balls were gone -- but for a TD like you, I would think that could add more time to an already sometimes loooong game. I believe he was suggesting playing each match as a race to a total ball count -- something like 25 or 30 -- regardless of how many games. Which of course means the match could be over in two racks since you don't stop when you get to eight -- or could go four full racks. His point was partly that every ball counts if you play that way -- and you have a clear 'leader'.
 

jrhendy

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
5,717
From
Placerville, CA
Hard Times Tourney

Hard Times Tourney

Playing all fifteen balls and playing to a ball count might be an interesting tourney. A round robin tournament is long anyway, and this might make for longer matches, but going down to the last ball is one of the more exciting moments in one pocket. Movers would have a chance to keep the ball count closer with the new wave of 8 and out players. The 8 & out guys might get a little impatient at the end part of the game & the movers can creep back in. Playing to a ball count, you could also handicap a one pocket tournament like they do in 9-ball.
 

yobagua

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May 24, 2004
Messages
245
Definitely be a tournament to catch in 2005! Steve when are you going to do a full report on your trip to Hard Times. It has one of the few prestigious one pocket contests in this country and needs a more thorough going over. i.e. How was the change to Scott Smith? How was the quality of Play? Any action? etc. Please let us know your thoughts.
 

NH Steve

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Messages
12,283
From
New Hampshire
yobagua said:
Definitely be a tournament to catch in 2005! Steve when are you going to do a full report on your trip to Hard Times. It has one of the few prestigious one pocket contests in this country and needs a more thorough going over. i.e. How was the change to Scott Smith? How was the quality of Play? Any action? etc. Please let us know your thoughts.
You, know, it was a lot of work getting this web site up and running, but I expected that -- what I didn't expect was how much work it was to keep it running!!! I think I've been busier since it started than I was setting it up -- go figure :) :)

However, I have just finished trancribing a nice long interview with Ronnie Allen (6+ pages!), and next up is a brief report from the tourney -- not a thorough top to bottom recap, but something with a few shot diagrams, and maybe a little insight into a player or two -- from a One Pocket player's perspective. I have photos as well. Just pluggin' along...

BTW, if I can't make one of the really great sounding tournaments that are coming up later this year, I will be looking for a volunteer -- hint, hint :) :)
 

yobagua

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Messages
245
Thanks so much for your hard work Steve. I myself hope to be attending the LV US Open one pocket event and if I can make it to Grady's tourney in Gulfport.
 

Troy

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May 24, 2004
Messages
89
From
San Jose, CA
Interesting John, that you mention handicap 1-Pocket using total ball count.
I have experimented using the USPPA "speed" (average) as a base and calculating from there.
For example, a 1-game spot in a race to 5 in 9-Ball would translate to 6 balls in a 1-Pocket race to 30 total balls or 4 balls in a race to 20 total balls.
Shoot all 15 balls, then re-rack with the player making the last ball having the break.
Certainly might be worth investigating further... :)

Troy
jrhendy said:
Playing all fifteen balls and playing to a ball count might be an interesting tourney. A round robin tournament is long anyway, and this might make for longer matches, but going down to the last ball is one of the more exciting moments in one pocket. Movers would have a chance to keep the ball count closer with the new wave of 8 and out players. The 8 & out guys might get a little impatient at the end part of the game & the movers can creep back in. Playing to a ball count, you could also handicap a one pocket tournament like they do in 9-ball.
 

jrhendy

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Joined
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Messages
5,717
From
Placerville, CA
Handicap one pocket

Handicap one pocket

Troy said:
Interesting John, that you mention handicap 1-Pocket using total ball count.
I have experimented using the USPPA "speed" (average) as a base and calculating from there.
For example, a 1-game spot in a race to 5 in 9-Ball would translate to 6 balls in a 1-Pocket race to 30 total balls or 4 balls in a race to 20 total balls.
Shoot all 15 balls, then re-rack with the player making the last ball having the break.
Certainly might be worth investigating further... :)

Troy
Might be worth talking to Tony Annigoni about. with the USPPA already established in many rooms & the popularity of one pocket growing, he might have some ideas on it. You could use a similar scoring system & it would work. I used to play a lot of one ball one pocket in Bellflower years ago. The nine ball players who hated one pocket would play & it was like stealing because at first they would go for all those do or die shots. It is a good game to convert players who don't have patience or understand the game to one pocket a little bit at a time.
 

SactownTom

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May 31, 2004
Messages
813
From
Sacramento CA
That is the format we will be using.

That is the format we will be using.

I've always played my round robin tournaments for Ball count rather than win-loss. Also, this limits any intentional 'business' players might be thinking of doing... it takes smarts to figure out total ball count. Well not much smarts, but at least more than 10 fingers. :p :rolleyes:

NH Steve said:
Tom,
<<<snipped>>>
Ronnie actually suggested that every rack be played out until all the balls were gone -- but for a TD like you, I would think that could add more time to an already sometimes loooong game. I believe he was suggesting playing each match as a race to a total ball count -- something like 25 or 30 -- regardless of how many games. Which of course means the match could be over in two racks since you don't stop when you get to eight -- or could go four full racks. His point was partly that every ball counts if you play that way -- and you have a clear 'leader'.
 

Troy

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
89
From
San Jose, CA
Well John, Tony & I have talked about it... Score sheets would work too. The biggest constraint is the time factor. Even going to a short race of 20 balls, it would be a lot slower than a race to 5 in 9-Ball.

Troy...~~~ Still thinking about it though
jrhendy said:
Might be worth talking to Tony Annigoni about. with the USPPA already established in many rooms & the popularity of one pocket growing, he might have some ideas on it. You could use a similar scoring system & it would work.
 
Last edited:

ajrack

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Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
26
From
Vancouver USA
Down south

Down south

I played a lot down south many years ago and played many matches ...race to 20 / 25 / 30.
It was a great way to play and good action!
I have also run a few tourneys with this format and to most of the "die hard" one pocket players, this was a shock! They have played the other way for so long they had to play a "NEW" game. The few who played in more than one tourney started to enjoy this format.

I will be opening a pool room later this year and this "WILL" be the format for many tourneys to come. And, after a few events, I think we will be able to develop a decent handicap system for, at least, the local players. Total accumilated ball count will also be a way to have a "Grand" champion after a few months...so every ball made will count.
 

titanic jerry

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Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
68
How Sweet It Is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How Sweet It Is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can not tell you guys what a pleasure it is to read your comments. The thing that comes off so clear is we have all experienced the bad parts of this game and are all able to see how great this game can be.

Handicapping these tournaments is new but let's face it if you have been around awhile you know change is inevitable.

What I have observed at this point is that a collective group of like minded individuals like those involved in this forum can make a difference. We should make one pocket an enitity by itself and set up a tour like the golfers have. I would like to see guys like Grady and Annigoni and a few of you guys create a set of hard and fast rules of play.

Let's break away completely from all the failed attempts to organize pocket billiards for men. I don't mean take away the U.S.P.P.A. or Grady's efforts but to establish a separate entity. A One Pocket Hall Of Fame dedicated to the players from the past and those of the future.

Records are where it is at. For example the Triple Crown becomes national interest as long as there is a horse going for it at Belmont, every P.G.A. event keeps scores as each course has a record with all the players trying to break it and the media reminds the spectators every time a record is about to fall, all sports with time and distance are waiting for the records to be broken as well.

Poker on T.V. is huge now due to the excitement of people seeing all that cash. Maybe we should make a spread for the audience to see.

We need Ronnie Allen to be the spokesperson for One Pocket, we need excitement as the players go for a record. Race to 3 and the winners total is 38 with the loser at 7. And at every tournament everyone is shooting for 39 to set a new record and if and when someone scores a 45 the races change to a race to 4 and 60 being the new number.

I am going to be in the country 2 years and 10 months and then I am retiring to Thailand (The land of smiles). Anything I can do to be of assistance just let me know.

To John Henderson,

Sorry I never got back to my message to you. I wanted to ask if you had ever heard or seen a game called back to the front? The 1st player breaks and if he has the left front pocket the opponent has the right back pocket. I got introduced to it by a guy from New York City in Alameda one night. If I had the back pocket I had to go to 3 to his 8 and if I had the front pocket I had to go to 9 to his 6. Played about 5 hours.................never won a game in any direction......................he could play.
Hopefully I will bump into you at Hard Times as I get there from time to time.

Titanic Jerry
 

hemicudas

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
From
Jackson, Miss.
Wo-Mule

Wo-Mule

Wondering if any of you west coast guys ever ran into a guy they called, Wo-Mule. He lives here in Jackson, MS now and plays a little still at 65-68 years old. He says he lived in the San Francisco area for many years. Says one pocket was his long suite Thanks.
 
Last edited:

titanic jerry

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Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
68
Ho-Mule

Ho-Mule

Hey Hemicudas.............glad to see you are on again...............I remember that guy well. He was also known either as the sailor or sailor Hank. He would shoot his shot and (like the rest of us talk to the balls) he would yell Ho- Mule meaning Whoa asking the cue ball to stop. He played snooker good and though he was not a top player he was definitely someone to reckon with.

One of the strangest games I ever saw was between him and Arthur "REX" Berman from New York City. They played first one to ten points 3 cushion billiards one handed. Could not use the rail. It was amazing that they could propel those old ivory balls enough to score. They played two games Rex won them both and Ho-Mule quit.

Thinking back to that era I watched two guys play a one pocket session that was interesting. They both were a couple of old sharkies ("Legs" and "The Russian") and they played even up one pocket. The only catch was if you opened your mouth and said even one word during the other guys inning you lost the game. You could be ahead 6 to 1 but if you said sometning you lost the game. They played about 4 hours that way and quit. They just wanted to make a point to the other that they just couldn't keep their mouth shut. We talked about that match for months and if one of the two were there they would say "see I told ya that guy couldn't shut up and play!!"

Hope to meet you in person some day and knock some balls around.Till then hope you have all good rolls.

Titanic Jerry
 

hemicudas

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
From
Jackson, Miss.
That's Him!!!!!!!

That's Him!!!!!!!

titanic jerry said:
Hey Hemicudas.............glad to see you are on again...............I remember that guy well. He was also known either as the sailor or sailor Hank. He would shoot his shot and (like the rest of us talk to the balls) he would yell Ho- Mule meaning Whoa asking the cue ball to stop. He played snooker good and though he was not a top player he was definitely someone to reckon with.

One of the strangest games I ever saw was between him and Arthur "REX" Berman from New York City. They played first one to ten points 3 cushion billiards one handed. Could not use the rail. It was amazing that they could propel those old ivory balls enough to score. They played two games Rex won them both and Ho-Mule quit.

Thinking back to that era I watched two guys play a one pocket session that was interesting. They both were a couple of old sharkies ("Legs" and "The Russian") and they played even up one pocket. The only catch was if you opened your mouth and said even one word during the other guys inning you lost the game. You could be ahead 6 to 1 but if you said sometning you lost the game. They played about 4 hours that way and quit. They just wanted to make a point to the other that they just couldn't keep their mouth shut. We talked about that match for months and if one of the two were there they would say "see I told ya that guy couldn't shut up and play!!"

Hope to meet you in person some day and knock some balls around.Till then hope you have all good rolls.

Titanic Jerry
That's my guy, Jerry. It is obvious that he could play some when he was younger. Yes, he was in the navy and his name is Henry. He comes to the pool room I hang out at here in Jackson, older guys, every thursday. I will be sure to relate your story, Jerry. I envy you, him and the others in the bay area that got to see Ronnie in his prime. Another question, how did Ronnie and Bucktooth match up back then. I have allways been curious as to the Tooth's true speed, in his hayday. I know Ronnie's speed.

One more thing, to, John Henderson. If I'm not knocking any action, John, how did you and Ronnie match up back then? If the question is out of line, I appologize. Just tell me to, well, I'm sure you can come up with something to tell me, LOL.
 

jrhendy

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
5,717
From
Placerville, CA
titanic jerry said:
I can not tell you guys what a pleasure it is to read your comments. The thing that comes off so clear is we have all experienced the bad parts of this game and are all able to see how great this game can be.

Handicapping these tournaments is new but let's face it if you have been around awhile you know change is inevitable.

What I have observed at this point is that a collective group of like minded individuals like those involved in this forum can make a difference. We should make one pocket an enitity by itself and set up a tour like the golfers have. I would like to see guys like Grady and Annigoni and a few of you guys create a set of hard and fast rules of play.

Let's break away completely from all the failed attempts to organize pocket billiards for men. I don't mean take away the U.S.P.P.A. or Grady's efforts but to establish a separate entity. A One Pocket Hall Of Fame dedicated to the players from the past and those of the future.

Records are where it is at. For example the Triple Crown becomes national interest as long as there is a horse going for it at Belmont, every P.G.A. event keeps scores as each course has a record with all the players trying to break it and the media reminds the spectators every time a record is about to fall, all sports with time and distance are waiting for the records to be broken as well.

Poker on T.V. is huge now due to the excitement of people seeing all that cash. Maybe we should make a spread for the audience to see.

We need Ronnie Allen to be the spokesperson for One Pocket, we need excitement as the players go for a record. Race to 3 and the winners total is 38 with the loser at 7. And at every tournament everyone is shooting for 39 to set a new record and if and when someone scores a 45 the races change to a race to 4 and 60 being the new number.

I am going to be in the country 2 years and 10 months and then I am retiring to Thailand (The land of smiles). Anything I can do to be of assistance just let me know.

To John Henderson,

Sorry I never got back to my message to you. I wanted to ask if you had ever heard or seen a game called back to the front? The 1st player breaks and if he has the left front pocket the opponent has the right back pocket. I got introduced to it by a guy from New York City in Alameda one night. If I had the back pocket I had to go to 3 to his 8 and if I had the front pocket I had to go to 9 to his 6. Played about 5 hours.................never won a game in any direction......................he could play.
Hopefully I will bump into you at Hard Times as I get there from time to time.

Titanic Jerry
That game is a new one to me. I've played where both players have the back pockets instead of the normal way, but don't care much for that game. I'm planning on going to Hard Times for the tournament on 8/7, hope to see you there sometime.
 

titanic jerry

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Joined
Jun 26, 2004
Messages
68
sorry not this time

sorry not this time

John,

8/7 is my birthday. I crack 64. My brother and I are on a driving mission.Heading for San Antonio, New Orleans, Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky,Branson, Memphis, Nashville, corner of Kansas, Oklahoma,New Mexico, Grand Canyon in Arizona and then Morro Bay, Monterey and home.
That is the plan. Taking off 3 weeks from work.

Will see you in the fall somewhere. But you still play too good.


Titanic Jerry
 

hemicudas

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
702
From
Jackson, Miss.
Jackson

Jackson

titanic jerry said:
John,

8/7 is my birthday. I crack 64. My brother and I are on a driving mission.Heading for San Antonio, New Orleans, Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky,Branson, Memphis, Nashville, corner of Kansas, Oklahoma,New Mexico, Grand Canyon in Arizona and then Morro Bay, Monterey and home.
That is the plan. Taking off 3 weeks from work.

Will see you in the fall somewhere. But you still play too good.


Titanic Jerry
Jerry, if you and your brother can make it through Jackson, MS on a thursday we can visit our Sailor buddy. Would love to meet you.
 

yobagua

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May 24, 2004
Messages
245
Hey John or Doc. Do you guys ever remember Jerry the Greek and his dog King? Jerry was a great road player. What ever happened to him and his wonderful dog? I ran into a guy who said that Crippled Shorty was still around but not playing anymore.
 
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