Hustler Shot in Slow Motion

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 23, 2017

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5uskVSSTHSVeG1iMy0zTm1nekE/view?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDdnRqa3lxN09HYWM/view?usp=drivesdk[

This is a slow motion video of Paul Newman's Hustler Shot from the movie: "The Hustler". He did this shot in the opening bar scene.

I did these videos to eliminate the controversy and to clear up any doubt as to whether or not this shot is legal when stroked properly (very high cue ball). It is easy to judge especially from the side. If the cue does not follow through it will pretty much completely stop upon contacting the cue ball, and thus is an impeded stroke resulting in a foul. But, if the stroke follows through then it is not inhibited and is a legal stroke, resulting in a legal shot.

If you stop any one of these videos at the precise time that the cue tip contacts the cue ball and just comes off, you will notice that the 8 is still well compressed into the cushion and has not as of yet, rebounded. Once the rebound starts the cue is well clear and above the cue ball and the stroke has followed through one ball width at this point, and full stroke is 1-1/2 ball width.

Thus without a doubt this is a legal shot! This undoubtedly is one of the most famous shots in history, and it's integrity needs to be upheld!

For more in-depth information I suggest you go to the Bank Forum, and review it in its entirety. I decided to also thread it on the One Pocket Forum because there are many more viewers as compared to the Bank Forum. turn sound on, enjoy, Whitey

Saving shots!

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 23, 2017

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5uskVSSTHSVeG1iMy0zTm1nekE/view?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDdnRqa3lxN09HYWM/view?usp=drivesdk[

This is a slow motion video of Paul Newman's Hustler Shot from the movie: "The Hustler". He did this shot in the opening bar scene.

I did these videos to eliminate the controversy and to clear up any doubt as to whether or not this shot is legal when stroked properly (very high cue ball). It is easy to judge especially from the side. If the cue does not follow through it will pretty much completely stop upon contacting the cue ball, and thus is an impeded stroke resulting in a foul. But, if the stroke follows through then it is not inhibited and is a legal stroke, resulting in a legal shot.

If you stop any one of these videos at the precise time that the cue tip contacts the cue ball and just comes off, you will notice that the 8 is still well compressed into the cushion and has not as of yet, rebounded. Once the rebound starts the cue is well clear and above the cue ball and the stroke has followed through one ball width at this point, and full stroke is 1-1/2 ball width.

Thus without a doubt this is a legal shot! This undoubtedly is one of the most famous shots in history, and it's integrity needs to be upheld!

For more in-depth information I suggest you go to the Bank Forum, and review it in its entirety. I decided to also thread it on the One Pocket Forum because there are many more viewers as compared to the Bank Forum. turn sound on, enjoy, Whitey

Saving shots!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDc0pEMWI1UGFnQjQ/view?usp=drivesdk

beatle · Oct 23, 2017

whether its a legal shot or not you cant prove it to your opponent, and if gambling he likely will call it a foul.
as always you have to tell him before you shoot those kind of shots or you are going to not get paid. and of course get him to let you shoot it. and then after you do he may tell you its a foul and you arent getting paid.

El Chapo · Oct 23, 2017

It looked to me like the cb hit the shaft on the way out. I could be wrong. It would help to see it even slower.

lll · Oct 23, 2017

nice video whitey
btw you think its time to shape your tip or put a new one on ?? :heh

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 23, 2017

lll said:
nice video whitey
btw you think its time to shape your tip or put a new one on ?? :heh

lll, the reason it looks that way is because it is a hard jump / break tip that is narrow and never gets shaped. I had to use my jump / break cue to keep down the shaft vibration, because my shooter with a 11 mm shaft was a blur making it hard to tell when the cue was in and not in contact with the cb. thanks for the compliment! Whitey

Patrick Johnson · Oct 25, 2017

Here are the closest frames (that I could grab) prior to and just after the moment of contact. I don't think it's clear from these whether or not it's a legal hit - if I had to call it from these I'd say the uncertain hit goes to the shooter.

Also, it may not be immediately obvious from these pics, but it's pretty clear watching the video that the cue ball "climbs" the object ball a little - it's already a little airborne in the second pic below, and you can see it clearly in the last two pics too if you look closely.

pj
chgo

View attachment 50222

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 25, 2017

Patrick Johnson said:
Here are the closest frames (that I could grab) prior to and just after the moment of contact. I don't think it's clear from these whether or not it's a legal hit - if I had to call it from these I'd say the uncertain hit goes to the shooter.

Also, it may not be immediately obvious from these pics, but it's pretty clear watching the video that the cue ball "climbs" the object ball a little - it's already a little airborne in the second pic below, and you can see it clearly in the last two pics too if you look closely.

pj
chgo

View attachment 50222

Patrick, I only wish I could do this in super slow motion so that the vibration of the cue that makes it fuzzy would not be present. But, in the 2nd picture the cue is now clearly going above the cue ball about 1/4 ball through and the 8 ball is still in contact with the cushion. When the cue is 1/4 ball through & above the cb, the 8 is totally compressed against the cushion about 3/16"

Patrick if you go to the top view and stop it when the cue is 1/4 ball through you will clearly see the compressed 8 ball. And if you would not mind would you also post this view. It is also very visible in the full depiction of the shot.

If you remember in the Orcollo v. Chohan match the commentators said; "did you see that cue ball climb the ball". And that was just a regular shot, and of course not a foul, and not a foul on this shot either. On this shot with all the forces at play, I would expect the cue ball to climb. It sure did not climb much which is an excellent indicator that it was hit pretty darn clean.

With the cue 1 ball width through the cb then the 8 ball starts its rebound.
Your final pic. shows the cue above the balls and followed through 1-1/2 ball widths. Which clearly represents that the cue was uninhibited.

Again the main foul criteria that a referee can ascertain with their naked eye; cue remain upon the cb a prolong time, and the cue does not follow through. This foul stroke can cause the cb to wedge sideways, or against the ob. I'll post a video of fouling the cue ball then it will clearly show the difference between a clean hit and poorly stroked shot.

Even if super slow motion showed the vibrating cue once again vibrating down and kissing the top of the cue ball it would still not be a foul, for the referee could never judge this. And there again the next video the cue might not subsequently touch anything.

In my shot I think the cue does not touch any balls after the initial contact, for there is no indication that the balls or the cue are inhibited.

Patrick, thanks very much for getting involved, I really appreciate it, for I want this totally scrutinized. Post some more stop pic. Maybe between the two of us and others, this great shot will be truly vindicated, and recognized as a legal shot when executed properly. thanks so much for posting the pics. Whitey

El Chapo · Oct 26, 2017

Patrick Johnson said:
Here are the closest frames (that I could grab) prior to and just after the moment of contact. I don't think it's clear from these whether or not it's a legal hit - if I had to call it from these I'd say the uncertain hit goes to the shooter.

Also, it may not be immediately obvious from these pics, but it's pretty clear watching the video that the cue ball "climbs" the object ball a little - it's already a little airborne in the second pic below, and you can see it clearly in the last two pics too if you look closely.

pj
chgo

View attachment 50222

And it looks very likely that the climbing was stopped by the shaft of the cue which looks like it came in contact with the cb. That’s just what I saw.

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 26, 2017

El Chapo, Patrick, If you look at the sequence of the shots you will notice the cb does not loose contact with the table until on the rebound, the 3rd frame, and if you notice you can see light between the shaft and the cb. The rebound does not happen until the cue is 1 ball width cue travel. I guess what I am saying if you guys think it is a foul that cb rolls up on the object ball, and thus it then would be surmised as being a push shot, then why on the forward stroke the cb is not off the table. imo the cb is not riding up the ob.

What El Chapo is surmising is that I am rolling the cb up the ob plus holding the cb down on the table with my cue. But if I am holding the cb down with my cue then how can you explain how the cb now leaves contact with the table. Not understanding this!

Upon impact the cue bows downs, upon release (no longer in contact) it bows up (@ or before 1/4 ball follow through), then bows down again @ full follow through.

But by the initial force being down on the cue ball because of the downward bow of the cue this might explain the cb having air underneath it on the rebound. You'll notice as the video continues the cue ball bounces.

If you go to the full view you will notice this action of the cue, and you will notice that my bridge hand is elevating up simultaneously as the cue contacts the cb. This is very important for any drop of the cue and it will impede the cue ball.

A hard jump / break tip is only in contact with the cb 1/1000 of a sec. On this shot it might be 4 times that, not sure at this point but we will have an answer.

thanks guys for scrutinizing the shot. I need to do some more views and a little better quality. I hope my comments back are helpful in deciphering out this shot. thanks, Whitey

Patrick Johnson · Oct 26, 2017

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:
Patrick, I only wish I could do this in super slow motion so that the vibration of the cue that makes it fuzzy would not be present. But, in the 2nd picture the cue is now clearly going above the cue ball about 1/4 ball through and the 8 ball is still in contact with the cushion. When the cue is 1/4 ball through & above the cb, the 8 is totally compressed against the cushion about 3/16"

Patrick if you go to the top view and stop it when the cue is 1/4 ball through you will clearly see the compressed 8 ball. And if you would not mind would you also post this view. It is also very visible in the full depiction of the shot.

Sorry, those are the closest-together frames I could capture. Is there a technique for getting more frames?

If you remember in the Orcollo v. Chohan match the commentators said; "did you see that cue ball climb the ball". And that was just a regular shot, and of course not a foul, and not a foul on this shot either. On this shot with all the forces at play, I would expect the cue ball to climb. It sure did not climb much which is an excellent indicator that it was hit pretty darn clean.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that the CB climbing is a sign of whether or not it's a foul - just an interesting fact that probably is way more common than we think.

With the cue 1 ball width through the cb then the 8 ball starts its rebound.
Your final pic. shows the cue above the balls and followed through 1-1/2 ball widths. Which clearly represents that the cue was uninhibited.

Again the main foul criteria that a referee can ascertain with their naked eye; cue remain upon the cb a prolong time, and the cue does not follow through. This foul stroke can cause the cb to wedge sideways, or against the ob. I'll post a video of fouling the cue ball then it will clearly show the difference between a clean hit and poorly stroked shot.

Even if super slow motion showed the vibrating cue once again vibrating down and kissing the top of the cue ball it would still not be a foul, for the referee could never judge this. And there again the next video the cue might not subsequently touch anything.

In my shot I think the cue does not touch any balls after the initial contact, for there is no indication that the balls or the cue are inhibited.

Patrick, thanks very much for getting involved, I really appreciate it, for I want this totally scrutinized. Post some more stop pic. Maybe between the two of us and others, this great shot will be truly vindicated, and recognized as a legal shot when executed properly. thanks so much for posting the pics. Whitey

Sorry - like I said, the pics I posted are the closest-together frames I can grab.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Oct 26, 2017

El Chapo said:
And it looks very likely that the climbing was stopped by the shaft of the cue which looks like it came in contact with the cb. That’s just what I saw.

I can't say for sure that's what I see - and like Whitey says, that kind of foul is pretty much impossible to see in real time anyway. Sometimes you can hear it, but I don't think a foul could be called on that basis either.

pj
chgo

Patrick Johnson · Oct 26, 2017

Here's the same pics with lines added to show ball movement. The vertical lines start at the center of both balls, and the horizontal line starts at the top edge of the 8 ball. All three lines remain stationary so we can see the ball movements.

pj
chgo

View attachment 41878

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 27, 2017

A clearer video

A clearer video

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3mIFr_7LuGDcTNBb185Y0NjLVk/view?usp=drivesdk

This video is a side view as if a referee were judging it. This time I used a better camera and a purple heart shaft to keep down the vibration. If you stop the video just before the cue goes 1/2 ball width through then you will notice the cue above the cb and the 8 is still compressed into the cushion. I like the way the cb reacts by spinning against the grain as it goes across. The cue ball stops about 1/2 way across the table.

I was going to post it also at regular speed but it is ridiculously fast.

Let me know what you think, an illegal shot or a legal shot! I want to thank all the viewers, I appreciate it!
Enjoy, Whitey

El Chapo · Oct 27, 2017

Let’s just forget the video for a moment and think about it theoretically.

Your tip is going into the cb, there is nowhere for the cb to go, for lack of a better way to put it. Let’s just stop right there...

Your tip is there contacting the cb, but the cb can’t move or is coming back. Those are the only two legal choices. The third choice would be you push the cb through and compress it and the ob into the cloth, but that would be a double hit and we don’t need to consider it.

Ok, so again, your tip is at point X upon contact, cb can only hold still or come back. There’s no possible way to get the tip and or shaft out of the way in my opinion.

For it to be legal, the tip would have to make contact and then immediately dissapear, which we all know is impossible. That’s just my opinion of course.

Wasn’t there a guy posting here that did super slow mo? He was always asking about shots to put up and nobody had any lol. My money is on 100 guys shooting this shot with super slow mo cameras, and there being 100 fouls, despite I’m sure they feel like good hits many times.

El Chapo · Oct 27, 2017

Patrick Johnson said:
I can't say for sure that's what I see - and like Whitey says, that kind of foul is pretty much impossible to see in real time anyway. Sometimes you can hear it, but I don't think a foul could be called on that basis either.

pj
chgo

If you watch that first video he posted, the cb tries to go up and gets put back down on the table by his shaft. But yes that’s just what I saw.

I don’t think this point is so important though. To me it’s a foul even before shooting, lol.

If a guy has two frozen balls in the middle of the table, it’s pretty well known when you shoot at them straight on there is just no way to get out of a foul... meaning cb contacting tip multiple times, aka double hit. This is the same situation but frozen on the rail! Lol. This exacerbates the situation, it does not ease it. Again, just my opinion.

One last thing I will note, I personally believe that if u did somehow program a robot to hit this legally here (which again I don’t even think is possible, lol), I don’t think the ball would go. I think the foul is what makes the ball go.

gulfportdoc · Oct 27, 2017

El Chapo said:
Let’s just forget the video for a moment and think about it theoretically.

Your tip is going into the cb, there is nowhere for the cb to go, for lack of a better way to put it. Let’s just stop right there...

Your tip is there contacting the cb, but the cb can’t move or is coming back. Those are the only two legal choices. The third choice would be you push the cb through and compress it and the ob into the cloth, but that would be a double hit and we don’t need to consider it.

Ok, so again, your tip is at point X upon contact, cb can only hold still or come back. There’s no possible way to get the tip and or shaft out of the way in my opinion.

For it to be legal, the tip would have to make contact and then immediately dissapear, which we all know is impossible. That’s just my opinion of course.

Wasn’t there a guy posting here that did super slow mo? He was always asking about shots to put up and nobody had any lol. My money is on 100 guys shooting this shot with super slow mo cameras, and there being 100 fouls, despite I’m sure they feel like good hits many times.

Very logical reasoning, EC. I don't know how to post a non-YouTube video, but here's the link to Dr. Dave's super slomo vid of the "Hustler" shot:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-23.htm

BTW it's easily achievable to NOT double hit the CB when shooting straight at a frozen CB/OB in the open table. Here is a super slomo vid demonstrating that:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96.htm

~Doc

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 27, 2017

El Chapo, thanks for continuing to bring up the other side that this is a foul.

It is extremely important that this shot gets totally debated. There was a shot developed in the 1850's know as a "Lumberjack", "timberlick", or "Bowery", it is when two balls are jawed together. Today it is when the cue ball is frozen to the the intended object ball. Well when the WPA wanted the USA to join, this shot was hated by the Europeans, and still to this day many of their governing European bodies do not except this shot. So our American shot was probably truly debated at this international meeting, and was under attack at that time, and if we were not such a strong market we could of lost this shot. So protecting the Hustler Shot is important!

Well I believe Paul Newman's shot is an American shot, and possibly developed by Charles C. Peterson, for he traveled the nation and offered up a reward for anyone who could show him a shot that he could not do. Just a hunch on my part.

What we are dealing with is what is called a "cushion compression shot". WPA does not cover this, bcapl/csi does. 1.20.2 If the cue ball is frozen to a cushion, it is legal to shoot the cue ball into the cushion provided you use a legal stroke.

Now when stroking a cue ball into the cushion that it is frozen to then the stroke is going to stay on the cue ball an exceptable slightly longer time than that of a normal everyday shot, because simply the cushion absorbs the impact and thus it takes longer for the cue to clear from contact.

I call these, Cue Ball Impeded Shots. My definition for this; When there is a natural impeding effect of an object ball, a cushion, or the bed of the table upon the stroked cue ball then this natural impeding effect legally allows; Frozen cue Ball Shots, Cushion Compression Shots, Masse' and Jump Shots to have a slightly longer cue tip contact time upon the cue ball than what is normally allowed for a legal stroke.

When you think about it; shooting at a lone cue ball frozen to the rail and stroked directly into the rail, is not much different than shooting the Paul Newman shot. The cue has to get out of the way of the rebound, the cue can not push the cue ball as is wedging the cue ball to the rail, and the stroke can not be impeded, or impede the cue ball.

Cushion Compression Shot; Is a shot that is stroked into the cushion that has either; the cue ball frozen to a cushion, or the cue ball frozen to a legal object ball that in turn is frozen to a cushion. My writing.

Throughout One Pocket matches the cue ball can be frozen to an object ball that in turn is frozen to the rail. Although perpendicular to the rail as Paul Newman's shot is very rare, but on various angles to the rail does happen, but still very infrequently. And as the angle decreases from perpendicular then also the does the chance of committing a foul.

We have all seen the cue ball compression shot whereas the cue ball is frozen to the rail with an illegal object ball frozen perpendicular to it, and the shooter shoots the cue ball into the rail in-behind the object ball and escapes the trap without contacting the illegal object ball, and pockets their ball in the corner. A Beautiful shot, executed by compressing the cushion.

Sorry for getting so much into the my thoughts of what the rule aspects of this should be, but I figured if we are to have a true debate then I needed to put forth my reasoning as to why this shot is legal, and why this shot is important to us.

Reference the latest video that I just posted, it is a much clearer.
thanks, Whitey

Dennis "Whitey" Young · Oct 27, 2017

gulfportdoc said:
Very logical reasoning, EC. I don't know how to post a non-YouTube video, but here's the link to Dr. Dave's super slomo vid of the "Hustler" shot:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-23.htm

BTW it's easily achievable to NOT double hit the CB when shooting straight at a frozen CB/OB in the open table. Here is a super slomo vid demonstrating that:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-96.htm

~Doc

Doc, as I stated before, this video by Dr. Dave is an example of a double hit foul that occurs when the shot is poorly stroked and poorly executed. The way this shot is stroked and the angle taken, well no wonder he gets a double hit. Plus if you let the cue drop upon contact then there is no way to get out of an illegal hit. Compare this with my latest posted video, which is now much clearer and more frames / sec. than my previous videos, (thread #14), and I think you will see a clear difference.

I am in contact with Dr. Dave and we are corresponding on this shot and the videos.

I meant to post a poorly stroked video of this shot, in which I intentionally create a double hit or push shot foul, but I forgot. Incidentally I have hit it really bad whereas the cue stops its forward motion and you can feel the jammed up stroke, and still the ob ball goes across corner.

This phenomena can happen because when you stroke the cb to low it compresses everything completely into the cushion with cue still upon the cb, and then when the cue releases the rebound force of the compressed cushion still gets the ob across corner.

Many trick shot artists use this method to hold the cb in a certain area to meet the requirments of the trick shot. But it is foul for it utilizes a push shot stroke to execute it, and is capable to be witnessed by a referee for the stroke does not go through. Possibly and more likely a trick shot artist performed the Hustler shot for Dr. Dave.

So it is possible as El Chapo suggests, and Dr. Dave's video suggests that even if improperly stroked the ob ball can be pocketed. Do not be deceived by whether the ob is pocketed, but, it is whether or not the stroke in uninhibited and not allowed to follow through, and/ or the cue ball is uninhibited, in which you will see the cue ball travel awkwardly or not continue forward at all for it gets contacted by the cue or stopped by the cue.

Thanks for posting this shot once again, Whitey

Patrick Johnson · Oct 27, 2017

El Chapo said:
Let’s just forget the video for a moment and think about it theoretically.

Your tip is going into the cb, there is nowhere for the cb to go, for lack of a better way to put it. Let’s just stop right there...

Your tip is there contacting the cb, but the cb can’t move or is coming back.

The CB does move forward as the 8 ball is driven into the cushion - this is clear from the videos. The only question is whether a double hit or push is necessary for that to happen.

Your tip is there contacting the cb, but the cb can’t move or is coming back. Those are the only two legal choices. The third choice would be you push the cb through and compress it and the ob into the cloth, but that would be a double hit and we don’t need to consider it.

As Doc reminded us, when the CB is frozen to the OB (and not against a rail) it's legal to stroke straight through them with a normal stroke because both balls move away from the tip together (at the same time), making it impossible to double hit/push the CB. Slomo videos have confirmed this. Can this be what's also happening here, even though the OB has to compress the cushion in order to move?

Since the OB goes somewhere (into the cushion), it's reasonable to think that the CB might be able to follow it without being double hit (like it does when there's no cushion there). At least there's no hard and fast reason to deny that.

pj
chgo

Hustler Shot in Slow Motion

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