Systems (not Aiming Systems)

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
19,057
From
vero beach fl
for kicking and banking could those of you on the forum tell me (us) how you do it? is it purely by feel ? is it corner 5? is it mirror table ?etc? id like to know.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
lll said:
for kicking and banking could those of you on the forum tell me (us) how you do it? is it purely by feel ? is it corner 5? is it mirror table ?etc? id like to know.


Larry,

I am the worlds worst 1 rail and 2 rail kicker. But for 3 rails or more I think it was the corner 5 that I learned to play 3-cushion billiards. It of course pulls up shorter on a 4 1/2 X 9 than on a 5 X 10, but once you learn it, it can get you out of many jams.

For banking, I never had any way to aim except experience and feel for the shot. And also, watch good bankers and see how they hit the shots. And shooting them 1000 times does not hurt either. After awhile you will get down on a bank and know that it's going in before you shoot it. just like any other shot.

Dennis
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
lll said:
for kicking and banking could those of you on the forum tell me (us) how you do it? is it purely by feel ? is it corner 5? is it mirror table ?etc? id like to know.
Pool players dont use the dimond 5 into 3 brings you off off dimond two into the corner. some pool players might no. Espcialy if the learend the dimond system. Bugs Told me he playes by feel . And On some shots he knowes how much english to use . And he creates angles with speed. I never learned none of this . Thas why i cant bank. I think Cannon Ball or Young Blood shot playing with the lites. I dont care for banks So I will Turn It over to the Bank Expert Freedy. And He can Answer all you Quistions Because He Loves Banks And Knowes banks. So You Might as well ask someone that knowes.
 

mr3cushion

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2008
Messages
7,617
From
Cocoa Beach, FL
III; In the past 40 yrs. I've been playing 3 cushion billiards, I've created some of the most effective 1 and 2 cushion kicking systems around. I've only shown them to a few of my long time friends, "The Professor", "The Beard", actually pool players, not billiard players who could use it against me. I will tell you one thing, the so called "corner 5 system", is not correct on any table, pool or billiard. The hardest shots in 3 cushion billiards, believe it or not are banks, this is the last shot a billiard player wants to have to shoot, because there is not much of margin for error, in your calculation or stroke, it has to be the same allways.
If any one on this site is interested in learning any systems for pool or billiards, go to Old School Pool.net for information on our first clinic, May 17-19.
 

NH Steve

Administrator
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
12,283
From
New Hampshire
mr3cushion said:
III; In the past 40 yrs. I've been playing 3 cushion billiards, I've created some of the most effective 1 and 2 cushion kicking systems around. I've only shown them to a few of my long time friends, "The Professor", "The Beard", actually pool players, not billiard players who could use it against me. I will tell you one thing, the so called "corner 5 system", is not correct on any table, pool or billiard. The hardest shots in 3 cushion billiards, believe it or not are banks, this is the last shot a billiard player wants to have to shoot, because there is not much of margin for error, in your calculation or stroke, it has to be the same allways.
If any one on this site is interested in learning any systems for pool or billiards, go to Old School Pool.net for information on our first clinic, May 17-19.
I am fortunate to have 2006 National 3-cushion champion, Mazin Shooni now running the nearest poolroom to me (only a half hour's drive away :) ). A couple of weeks ago he hosted a three cushion tournament that included three current or former national champs. Mazin ended up third. But he did make a gorgeous "bank shot" in billiards terminology:

http://CueTable.com/C/?@03AJar4BAiH3CXQI3UJar2UbBn2UYnk4UAxr4Uaxd3UUvE@

My apologies if I have any of the ball positions a little off -- but this was definitely the general idea of the shot -- which he scored on. The next day he demonstrated it again, only it took him two tries :)

Oh, I don't think he uses a "system" for these.

As for systems -- I like the "spot on the wall" system for some shots :D
I also like the mirror for flat-ish angles (not for more open angles).
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,806
From
baton rouge, la
While we are on the subject of banking in one-pocket, I have a question for the good bankers here. On a fairly long cross bank, is your focus primarily on the contact point on the object ball, as opposed to focusing on the spot on the rail you want to hit? Maybe the answer is 'both equally', but I'm asking anyway. I'm not good on those shots, and they're not getting much easier. I find the long rail banks easier to see. Thanks.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
vapros said:
While we are on the subject of banking in one-pocket, I have a question for the good bankers here. On a fairly long cross bank, is your focus primarily on the contact point on the object ball, as opposed to focusing on the spot on the rail you want to hit? Maybe the answer is 'both equally', but I'm asking anyway. I'm not good on those shots, and they're not getting much easier. I find the long rail banks easier to see. Thanks.


vapros,

Which of these two shots do you consider a 'fairly long cross bank'?

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@2DXlb2PHXq2XXlb2XaYA4XJiw2kHXq2kWOq@3DYpo1PDEw3XYpo3XbUu4XTHu1kDEw3kWlc@[/CUETABLE]
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,806
From
baton rouge, la
To me, even the shorter one qualifies as a fairly long cross bank. I have trouble visualizing the angle, and I'm reluctant to shoot, unless I can leave the cue ball safe. I play with guys who make these like they're easy. Not so.
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
vapros said:
To me, even the shorter one qualifies as a fairly long cross bank. I have trouble visualizing the angle, and I'm reluctant to shoot, unless I can leave the cue ball safe. I play with guys who make these like they're easy. Not so.


vapros,

Are you talking about shooting them with pocket speed or a firmer stroke?

Neither shot is easy either.

Dennis
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,806
From
baton rouge, la
Nearly always pocket speed, because these are lags to me. The only exceptions would be shots where my first concern is the cue ball, and I need more force for my plan. Usually, if I hit a shot sharply it's because I have confidence I can make it. Isn't that how most players do it?
 

Cowboy Dennis

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2008
Messages
11,123
From
Detroit,Michigan
vapros said:
Nearly always pocket speed, because these are lags to me. The only exceptions would be shots where my first concern is the cue ball, and I need more force for my plan. Usually, if I hit a shot sharply it's because I have confidence I can make it. Isn't that how most players do it?


vapros,

Your original question was how to aim these banks. If you are lagging them in a one-pocket game, you aim and shoot them different than if you were playing banks or 9-ball. I do not have a method except for feel and experience.

If you were playing banks, you would hit the ball with the correct speed and spin to pocket the ball the best way possible.

In a one-pocket game, you want the ball to hang around the hole should you miss. You have to compromise aim for the sake of pocket speed or position.

As far as I know, only experience will show you where to aim them.

Dennis
 

vapros

Verified Member
Joined
May 24, 2004
Messages
4,806
From
baton rouge, la
Thanks, CD. I just feel that after fifteen years of one-pocket those shots should come easier. Guess I will have to live with them as lags. I never play anything else but one-pocket.
 

Skin

Verified Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
2,295
lll said:
for kicking and banking could those of you on the forum tell me (us) how you do it? is it purely by feel ? is it corner 5? is it mirror table ?etc? id like to know.

Larry, I bank and kick OK up to two rails. When it gets to three rails, I have little clue where the ball is going. I see if I can make the shot and leave first with center cue ball and if I can't, then I feel from there what adjustments to make.

Skin
 
Last edited:

androd

Verified Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,718
From
New Braunfels tx.
vapros said:
Thanks, CD. I just feel that after fifteen years of one-pocket those shots should come easier. Guess I will have to live with them as lags. I never play anything else but one-pocket.

Vapros, I never had a natural feel as to where to hit the banks. Over the years I have gained some knowledge. 1st. I look at the tangent line, then at a predetermined spot on the next table or wall, then at the light reflection on the OB and CB. when these line up I'm good to go, if they don't I have a decision to make. Freddies books and CD's have much useful info about speed and other variables. I have enjoyed one or two of them and found I either agreed or learned something new.
Rod. <---banks pretty damn good in his dotage.
PS; when you have a target, it never moves and you able to make adjustments if you're a little off.
 

fred bentivegna

Verified Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Messages
6,690
From
chicago illinois
There is a formula

There is a formula

Cowboy Dennis said:
vapros,

Your original question was how to aim these banks. If you are lagging them in a one-pocket game, you aim and shoot them different than if you were playing banks or 9-ball. I do not have a method except for feel and experience.

If you were playing banks, you would hit the ball with the correct speed and spin to pocket the ball the best way possible.

In a one-pocket game, you want the ball to hang around the hole should you miss. You have to compromise aim for the sake of pocket speed or position.

As far as I know, only experience will show you where to aim them.

Dennis


In my second DVD, Banking With The Beard -- the Movie, I spend about 20 minutes showing how to EXACTLY shoot those long cross corners from any position on the long rail. I also show you how to make them at easy, medium and hard speeds. I also show how to make them using english at varying speeds. It took 20 minutes on a video camera to explain all the possibilities, so if anyone is looking for all those answers in one or two paragraphs it aint gonna happen. If you still cant make those banks after learning the stuff on the DVD, stick to something less taxing, like straight pool.

the Beard
 

lll

Verified Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2007
Messages
19,057
From
vero beach fl
freddies dvd and books have great info on hitting many banks including those that look like they dont go but do (hows that for a plug mfor you freddy). grady had a bunch of videos some now on dvd that had alot of 1 rail bank info and 2 rail and 3 banks "systems" using the diamonds. for example for the long cross corners using the diagonal diamond as syarting points ie q ball on line from middle short rail diamond hitting thru middle diamond long rail (closest to you)gets you to the corner with running english as a kick. adding a ball to bank you have to make an adjustment but its a starting point. similar from the side pocket thru the short rail first diamond by the corner running english medium speed gets you to the corner 2 rails.adjustments by parralel line until the extremes then in halves. noone else uses these landmarks?
 

senor

Verified Member
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
1,001
My banking/kicking system was basically the mirror system. I would use diamonds and pockets as references for how the table played. Usually, a kick shot starting by the side pocket aimed at the second diamond will be a dead shot into the corner pocket. So from the side pocket to the second diamond I would extend that line past the table and use a reference point, like a pocket on the next table over, or a leg on a bar stool, and I could use that reference point as a place to begin judging a kick shot or bank shot. Notice judgment needs to be involved because sometimes I would use the reference point and look at the shot and just know it wasn't right and that an adjustment was needed.

I'll learn the multi-page layout soon enough, just not now, so excuse me for the multiple WEIs. These diagrams show the 'dead' spots, or the reference points I would find on all tables I played on. The first diagram shows a cue ball (A) hit pocket speed above center and a cue ball (B) hit firmly below center. I would use these reference points whenever I needed to slow roll a bank or fire one in, or whenever I needed to slow roll a kick or hit one firm.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1Qald3RaMh1lald2lbEh4laUe3maMh1mbld2mYvj@[/CUETABLE]

The next diagram depicts the first 'dead' spot I was describing above and the three rail 'dead' spot.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4QbMB3RaMh4lbMB3layK4lbKh3maMh1mbfp1mBUk2mbOy4maUR@[/CUETABLE]

Hope this helps. I never accepted proposals to give lessons when people asked me...now you can tell why, I have a hard time putting this stuff into words.
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
senor said:
My banking/kicking system was basically the mirror system. I would use diamonds and pockets as references for how the table played. Usually, a kick shot starting by the side pocket aimed at the second diamond will be a dead shot into the corner pocket. So from the side pocket to the second diamond I would extend that line past the table and use a reference point, like a pocket on the next table over, or a leg on a bar stool, and I could use that reference point as a place to begin judging a kick shot or bank shot. Notice judgment needs to be involved because sometimes I would use the reference point and look at the shot and just know it wasn't right and that an adjustment was needed.

I'll learn the multi-page layout soon enough, just not now, so excuse me for the multiple WEIs. These diagrams show the 'dead' spots, or the reference points I would find on all tables I played on. The first diagram shows a cue ball (A) hit pocket speed above center and a cue ball (B) hit firmly below center. I would use these reference points whenever I needed to slow roll a bank or fire one in, or whenever I needed to slow roll a kick or hit one firm.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1Qald3RaMh1lald2lbEh4laUe3maMh1mbld2mYvj@[/CUETABLE]

The next diagram depicts the first 'dead' spot I was describing above and the three rail 'dead' spot.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4QbMB3RaMh4lbMB3layK4lbKh3maMh1mbfp1mBUk2mbOy4maUR@[/CUETABLE]

Hope this helps. I never accepted proposals to give lessons when people asked me...now you can tell why, I have a hard time putting this stuff into words.
On my table If I kit one dimond and a half.The Cue ball will come off of 3 and a half dimond and go in the corner pocket. My table runs short. And mos pool tables run short. If you hit 2 and a half dimonds and come of of 2 and a half dimonds moet pool tableswill come short a halfa dimond to a dimond. And real short table a dimond and a half. But thats what you have to learn when you play on a strange table. but your diagrams are goog guids. Thanks for your post.
 

gulfportdoc

Verified Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2004
Messages
12,654
From
Gulfport, Mississippi
Artie Bodendorfer said:
On my table If I kit one dimond and a half.The Cue ball will come off of 3 and a half dimond and go in the corner pocket. My table runs short. And mos pool tables run short. If you hit 2 and a half dimonds and come of of 2 and a half dimonds moet pool tableswill come short a halfa dimond to a dimond. And real short table a dimond and a half. But thats what you have to learn when you play on a strange table.
Man, that is REALLY short! Especially for Nevada. Is your table a 9' or an 8'? It seems like on most 9-footers, if you hit at 2-1/4 or 2, it'll take the CB to the corner. I wonder if some table work would lengthen the angles?

Doc
 

Artie Bodendorfer

Verified Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
4,271
gulfportdoc said:
Man, that is REALLY short! Especially for Nevada. Is your table a 9' or an 8'? It seems like on most 9-footers, if you hit at 2-1/4 or 2, it'll take the CB to the corner. I wonder if some table work would lengthen the angles?

Doc
I have a gold crown table its a 9 foot table. My table runs short.
 
Top