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  #41  
Old 01-24-2019, 05:04 PM
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Tom Wirth Tom Wirth is offline
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Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
You keep bringing up disturbing the cue ball is a foul, well disturbing any ball is a foul in '68. Every sanctioned BCA tournament was All Ball Fouls. So why when spotting a ball should the cue ball be treated any different than any other ball? Answer me that, if you will ! The '68 BCA rule did not treat it any different, nor should they. It is much easier to get out of a trap when the ob is frozen to the cb when spotted. The BCA HOF masters knew this, signed off on it, and I know this, everyone knows this! And that is the way BCA sanctioned tournaments were played, by BCA rules which this was one! It is pretty simple!
Just because you and others did not play by this rule does not mean it was not a rule. 8-ball was a loss during this period when made on the break, but did anybody play that way, no! But, in a BCA sanctioned 8-Ball tournament they would of. Whitey
Geez, Whitey, I'm about done with this but why don't you get your facts straight. I just looked up the rule in the BCA Official rule book (copyright 1948 - 1990) regarding spotting balls and if you had done the same thing we would not be having this discussion. Take a moment and look it up yourself.

I've given you all I can on this subject. I'm spent!

Thanks for the discussion,

Tom
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  #42  
Old 01-24-2019, 06:43 PM
Jeff sparks Jeff sparks is offline
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Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
Tom & Jeff, I just deleted my long reply.
But the real question is, which rule would you rather play by?
A rule that allows the opponent to spot an object ball so close that it almost touches the cue ball, so that there is no way to shoot your way out of it, except to skim that object ball. Trapping the opponent like Efren did!
Or, a rule that allows the object ball to be frozen to the cue ball, and you can shoot directly into it and on any angle you want? The '68 BCA rule!

This is the question I would put to Billy, if you really want to Tom. But, Tom & Jeff ask that question of your selves. Let me know which way you would rather play by, and the wisdom behind it, if you wish to reply.

As I remember, Billy only recalled an object ball not being frozen to the cue ball, but he realized the wisdom behind having the object ball frozen to the cue ball. Further as I recall, he questioned the gap, for it is not specifically defined as to how much of a gap.

I tried to find his response this morning but was unable, but I will look some more.

OP.org allows a ball to be disturbed when spotting a ball, including the cue ball. So there is no argument there, whatsoever. I just reviewed a post by Steve that stated this in my search for Billy's response. Whitey

Whitey

Itís a simple rule, go back as far as you care to and to my knowledge you wonít find any rule where it states that you can freeze an object ball to the cb... Find just one credible source thatís states it ok to freeze it, not place it as close as possible, (and after all, there is a difference between these two distinctions ) and you will get the attention of all who believe you are incorrect in your belief about this particular rule... again, , but I never heard of it being played this way, and I played a lot of pool in the 60ís and 70ís in and around Southern California and most other parts of the country as well... If it was a rule back then, I would surely have been forced to play it, as I played the LA Open twice during that time period and they didnít use it...

Perhaps some other old timers might bare witness to what the correct rule was back then.. I know there are many members here who played one pocket for many more years than I and could easily testify as to what they did back then...
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  #43  
Old 01-25-2019, 12:23 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
sometimes a player actually does not realize that they committed a foul. So then how can you determine that they are unsportsmanlike for not calling a foul on themselves?
Dennis, you said "ever," which certainly includes those thimes when a player does know he fouled, but does not call it if his opponent didn't see it.

Poor sportsmanship IMO.

To take it a step further, whether it is unsportsmanlike does not hinge on whether anyone but the offending player knows it has happened. It is unsportsmanlike to do it, whether or not you get caught.
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  #44  
Old 01-25-2019, 12:39 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
This is also in line with my '68 BCA rule book, where it states all balls spotted are spotted frozen to balls, including the cb.
I would enjoy seeing the actual wording from the '68 BCA rule book rather than just a summary of it.

Thanks in advance.
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  #45  
Old 01-25-2019, 12:55 AM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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For What it's worth:

The 2017 BCA rule book states under Section 1 : "These general rules apply to all pocket billiard games, UNLESS specifically noted to the contrary in the individual game rules." It the offers a link to download general rules which takes us to World Pool-Billiard Association "The Rules of Play (Effective 15/3/16) "

In Section 1, Paragraph 4 (1.4) we find:

Spotting Balls

Balls are spotted (returned to play on the table) by placing them on the long string (long axis of the table) as close as possible to the foot spot and between the foot spot and the foot rail, without moving any interfering ball. If the spotted ball cannot be placed on the foot spot, it should be placed in contact (if possible) with the corresponding interfering ball. However, when the cue ball is next to the spotted ball, the spotted ball should not be placed in contact with the cue ball; a small separation must be maintained. If all of the long string below the foot spot is blocked by other balls, the ball is spotted above the foot spot, and as close as possible to the foot spot. [emphasis added -- LSJ]

This doesn't tell us what the BCA rule was in 1968, but it is clear about what the rule was in 2016, and presumably still.
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  #46  
Old 01-25-2019, 01:49 AM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Originally Posted by LSJohn View Post
I would enjoy seeing the actual wording from the '68 BCA rule book rather than just a summary of it.

Thanks in advance.
LS, I have posted before the exact wording of the '68 One Pocket rules. It is only 3/4 of a page long for a complete game rule. I believe it is the same writing as the '67 rule, which is the first year BCA recognized One Pocket. One Pocket in the last game recognized in the 68 pages devoted to billiard games. I took a picture of the written rule straight out of the rule book, and posted it. The 2nd. least recognized is Nine Ball. Both gambling games and thus they were frowned upon by Brunswick.
The spotting rule is located under the game of Rotation, and reference as such, so when you wanted to learn the rule on spotting balls it would guide you to rotation as the rule for all games that spot balls. Rotation is the 3rd game reference with 3 pages devoted to it, and Straight Pool 14.1 is referenced 4th and listed as the Championship Game, it has 14 pages dedicated to it. Like I said the 'Spotting Rule' it is quite long, nearly half a page. But I will take a picture of the rule and post it.
To be a true historian of American rules, it would take researching many volumes. Like I mentioned the President of BCA either changed yearly or every other year, so rules were changing and rewrote quite often. But you would have to acquire each year to realize changes in the rules up until WPA rules came into effect, and their rules have also changed over the years.
I regret that the rules our golden age hof masters played by are now somewhat lost. For example, who would of ever thought our BIH behind Line rule would of ever changed to what it is now.
In regards to calling a foul upon your self, yes indeed if you fouled and know it and your opponent did not call it, then yes call a foul on yourself. But, like I said you may not know you foul, and this happens, and the other side of the coin is, your opponent can call a foul on you that did not happen. The question is do you have to accept a foul that the shooter calls on himself. I believe Tom restated the question properly that should of been asked. Check his post, it is very well to the point, and solves this dilemma. thanks, LS! Whitey
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  #47  
Old 01-25-2019, 07:45 AM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Tom & Jeff,
I was very up set yesterday about something else not related to this. So I deleted my responses, so Jeff if you also delete my response also I would appreciated. I should not have been on here, being that upset. thanks, Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 01-25-2019 at 08:37 AM.
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  #48  
Old 01-25-2019, 09:45 AM
Jeff sparks Jeff sparks is offline
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Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
Tom & Jeff,
I was very up set yesterday about something else not related to this. So I deleted my responses, so Jeff if you also delete my response also I would appreciated. I should not have been on here, being that upset. thanks, Whitey


Have a better day today Whitey...
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  #49  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:14 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Default '68 BCA Spotting Ball rule

This is the '68 BCA rule pertaining to spotting balls.
Since games were all played by All Ball Fouls, which means if any ball gets accidently disturbed (touched) then it is a foul. So when spotting this obviously is waved and the cue ball is treated just as if it is an object ball, thus it is allowed to freeze (ball touching ball) the spotted ball to the cue ball.
This spotting rule is probably decades old, prior to '68.Whitey
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Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 01-25-2019 at 11:38 PM.
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  #50  
Old 01-26-2019, 08:22 AM
Jeff sparks Jeff sparks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis "Whitey" Young View Post
This is the '68 BCA rule pertaining to spotting balls.
Since games were all played by All Ball Fouls, which means if any ball gets accidently disturbed (touched) then it is a foul. So when spotting this obviously is waved and the cue ball is treated just as if it is an object ball, thus it is allowed to freeze (ball touching ball) the spotted ball to the cue ball.
This spotting rule is probably decades old, prior to '68.Whitey
You are correct about the rule back then... itís right there in black and white... I stand corrected... My apologies...

I just never played that way and the interpretation involving ( as close as possible ) was confusing to me...
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