Get out from here right now!

Cowboy Dennis

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Does anyone want to explain how to get position on the 1 like this?


Nothing wrong with that shot Steve. I'd still like someone to tell me how to get on the 1 ball by hitting down on the cueball.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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lll said:
i guess you and freddy are saying by sliding the cueball ino the 3 you will get all the collision induced spin you need.yes?



I would say yes to that.



lll said:
and adding english would tend to over throw it into the long rail?



I would say no to your interpretation resulting in your second question - you want as much throw as you can get.....That said, this is how I interpret/diagnose this type of ball interaction...it may be correct as to the laws of physics, or not - Freddy may concur, or not....

Imo, the reason you don't want to use outside english/sidespin when wanting to have maximum collision induced english applied instead, is because the more sidespin you have, the more it will take away from and negate the collision induced english......Explaining further >>> To induce collision induced english you want as much firm, solid, 'grabbing' contact as possible to occur between the cue ball and the object ball - a non spinning cue ball will give you this, whereas a ball spinning with self-applied english will more deflect/spin off of the object ball when it strikes it, giving you less 'collision contact grab'.....And so that's why you don't want to use self-applied spinning english, when wanting to achieve maximum collision induced english.....

....An analogy that I personally think of is...let's say a guy is standing next to you and your goal is, with one firm hard push, to push him sideways as far as you can....well, I think you will be able to push him farther if your hands and arms are moving solidly straight-forward, then if your hands and arms were spinning like tops when you pushed him = (that would be your hands and arms having spinning english applied to them)

- Ghost

ps, hopefully Pat Johnson doesn't see this....contrarian/science/physics geek that he is...:D, I'm sure he'll dispute it.....:rolleyes:
 
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SJDinPHX

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One Pocket Ghost said:
I would say yes to that.







I would say no to your interpretation resulting in your second question - you want as much throw as you can get.....That said, this is how I interpret/diagnose this type of ball interaction...it may be correct as to the laws of physics, or not - Freddy may concur, or not....

Imo, the reason you don't want to use outside english/sidespin when wanting to have maximum collision induced english applied instead, is because the more sidespin you have, the more it will take away from and negate the collision induced english......Explaining further >>> To induce collision induced english you want as much firm, solid, 'grabbing' contact as possible to occur between the cue ball and the object ball - a non spinning cue ball will give you this, whereas a ball spinning with self-applied english will more deflect/spin off of the object ball when it strikes it, giving you less 'collision contact grab'.....And so that's why you don't want to use self-applied spinning english, when wanting to achieve maximum collision induced english.

- Ghost

ps, hopefully Pat Johnson doesn't see this....contrarian/science/physics geek that he is...:D, I'm sure he'll dispute it.....:rolleyes:

Patrick,

Please take the Ghostman over to AZB and introduce him to your "Aiming System" crew. I'm sure he would blend right in.
Just so you know Ghost, I have always used maximum, collision induced, spin grabbing, side english, squirt,swerve, and CTE with a little BHE, on all my banks. And I rarely ever miss one. (But then I'm only 23)

Dick <---has not seen a 4-500 post A.S. thread, with the gloves off, for quite some time now. Its no fun having NO ONE to piss off. ;)
Dick is also out of Yukon Jack so he's going night, night. (Liquor store doesn't open till 7AM dammit !)
 
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fred bentivegna

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Yeah, ok

Yeah, ok

One Pocket Ghost said:
I would say yes to that.


I would say no to your interpretation resulting in your second question - you want as much throw as you can get.....That said, this is how I interpret/diagnose this type of ball interaction...it may be correct as to the laws of physics, or not - Freddy may concur, or not....

Imo, the reason you don't want to use outside english/sidespin when wanting to have maximum collision induced english applied instead, is because the more sidespin you have, the more it will take away from and negate the collision induced english......Explaining further >>> To induce collision induced english you want as much firm, solid, 'grabbing' contact as possible to occur between the cue ball and the object ball - a non spinning cue ball will give you this, whereas a ball spinning with self-applied english will more deflect/spin off of the object ball when it strikes it, giving you less 'collision contact grab'.....And so that's why you don't want to use self-applied spinning english, when wanting to achieve maximum collision induced english.

- Ghost

All in all, not a bad explanation, but what's still unsaid is, why would you want to use english, with all it's variables when you didnt need to?

the Beard
 

SJDinPHX

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At Last

At Last

Woo-Hoo. Patrick, get out your slide rule and put up some of those great 3-D graphics and prove them both wrong.
I feel a real war coming on. If only the principles were a little more opinionated, this could easily escalate into a real bloodbath. :rolleyes:

Dick <----Will do what he can to keep it friendly !
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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fred bentivegna said:
what's still unsaid is, why would you want to use english, with all it's variables when you didnt need to?

the Beard


Agreed...there's a lot of trouble brewing there - I was only speaking about the one factor.

- Ghost
 

One Pocket Ghost

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SJDinPHX said:
Patrick,

Please take the Ghostman over to AZB and introduce him to your "Aiming System" crew. I'm sure he would blend right in.
Just so you know Ghost, I have always used maximum, collision induced, spin grabbing, side english, squirt,swerve, and CTE with a little BHE, on all my banks. And I rarely ever miss one. (But then I'm only 23)

Dick <---has not seen a 4-500 post A.S. thread, with the gloves off, for quite some time now. Its no fun having NO ONE to piss off. ;)
Dick is also out of Yukon Jack so he's going night, night. (Liquor store doesn't open till 7AM dammit !)


Dick........Please don't be an ornery old desert rat, and insult my very considered scientific theories, just because you ran out of your medicine....:cool:

- Professor Ghost
 

lll

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if no extra spin on the cue ball will give maximum spin to the object ball are you saying that if you needed maximum throw to make a bank (game ball one ball left on the table) you wouldnt add english to the cueball? or are you differentiatng maximum COLLISION INDUCED THROW vs MAXIMUM SPIN YOU CAN GET ON THE OBJECT BALL?
 

One Pocket Ghost

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lll said:
if no extra spin on the cue ball will give maximum spin to the object ball are you saying that if you needed maximum throw to make a bank (game ball one ball left on the table) you wouldnt add english to the cueball? or are you differentiatng maximum COLLISION INDUCED THROW vs MAXIMUM SPIN YOU CAN GET ON THE OBJECT BALL?


I'm differentiating.

- Ghost
 

One Pocket Ghost

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lll said:
thanks. sjd , agree?


SJDick respond, are you kidding?...:rolleyes:...don't get him riled up - he'd rather run out of Jack Daniel's, than discuss pool physics.......Besides, he's not around right now - he's probably either out watering his cactus garden, or he's making a run over to the liquor department at Walmart.....:D

- Ghost
 

senor

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Cowboy Dennis said:
Does anyone want to explain how to get position on the 1 like this?

I would've expected someone to answer this by now. If you really feel like a nut I think the shot could be hit hard enough for the cue ball to go twice across and end up with a long cut shot down the table. However, since I never play anymore and I feel like I'm dogging the shot just by thinking about it, I would say the prudent way would be to bank your way out.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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One Pocket Ghost said:
I would say no to your interpretation resulting in your second question - you want as much throw as you can get.....That said, this is how I interpret/diagnose this type of ball interaction...it may be correct as to the laws of physics, or not - Freddy may concur, or not....

Imo, the reason you don't want to use outside english/sidespin when wanting to have maximum collision induced english applied instead, is because the more sidespin you have, the more it will take away from and negate the collision induced english......Explaining further >>> To induce collision induced english you want as much firm, solid, 'grabbing' contact as possible to occur between the cue ball and the object ball - a non spinning cue ball will give you this, whereas a ball spinning with self-applied english will more deflect/spin off of the object ball when it strikes it, giving you less 'collision contact grab'.....And so that's why you don't want to use self-applied spinning english, when wanting to achieve maximum collision induced english....

An analogy that I personally think of is...let's say a guy is standing next to you and your goal is, with one firm hard push, to push him sideways as far as you can....well, I think you will be able to push him farther if your hands and arms are moving solidly straight-forward, then if your hands and arms were spinning like tops when you pushed him = (that would be your hands and arms having spinning english applied to them)


- Ghost

ps, hopefully Pat Johnson doesn't see this....contrarian/science/physics geek that he is...:D, I'm sure he'll dispute it.....:rolleyes:



Well, I also posted this over at azbilliards, and az member, science/math professor Mike Page, said my analysis was correct....

....So with the thumbs up from Mike Page, and a luke warm agreement from the curmudgeonly Beard, I guess I can now feel assured that my theory is Gospel.....:D

- Ghost
 

Roy Steffensen

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Well, I also posted this over at azbilliards, and az member, science/math professor Mike Page, said my analysis was correct....

....So with the thumbs up from Mike Page, and a luke warm agreement from the curmudgeonly Beard, I guess I can now feel assured that my theory is Gospel.....:D

- Ghost

well, you completely lost me in that explanation. Perhaps that is another proof that your analysis was correct :)

(And now the Ghost is looking at his notes from DCC, page 2, on Roy, and adding "doesn't understand my explanation on "induce english side collision throw bhe" on bankshots. I can probably give him even more handicap. What a loser")
 

gulfportdoc

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Roy Steffensen said:
well, you completely lost me in that explanation. Perhaps that is another proof that your analysis was correct :)
Roy, I set up the 3-ball straight back shot today, and it pockets very nicely. Using low english actually tended to over spin the 3-ball.

I couldn't get it to go using inside english. I think Mike Page and Ghost are saying that sidespin tends to throw the object ball rather than causing it to spin; whereas straight low english causes spin on the object ball.

Doc
 

SJDinPHX

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gulfportdoc said:
Roy, I set up the 3-ball straight back shot today, and it pockets very nicely. Using low english actually tended to over spin the 3-ball.

I couldn't get it to go using inside english. I think Mike Page and Ghost are saying that sidespin tends to throw the object ball rather than causing it to spin; whereas straight low english causes spin on the object ball.

Doc

But Doc, If you make less than a perfect hit on the OB, with proper speed, you should have your ball close to the hole...is that bad ?

Dick <--- likes to keep his opponent off guard.
 

gulfportdoc

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SJDinPHX said:
But Doc, If you make less than a perfect hit on the OB, with proper speed, you should have your ball close to the hole...is that bad ?
That's right, Dick. It's desirable anyway it turns out. The shot actually plays very easily with low english. The shot doesn't seem to work on the short rail (at the foot of the table); at least on our wet tables here on the Miss. Gulf Coast. Freddy suggests using a masse-like low stroke.

Doc
 

fred bentivegna

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Thanks, Beard

Thanks, Beard

gulfportdoc said:
Roy, I set up the 3-ball straight back shot today, and it pockets very nicely.
Using low english actually tended to over spin the 3-ball.
I couldn't get it to go using inside english. I think Mike Page and Ghost are saying that sidespin tends to throw the object ball rather than causing it to spin; whereas straight low english causes spin on the object ball.

Doc

...Roy, I set up the 3-ball straight back shot today, and it pockets very nicely.


Thanks, Beard. Oops, actually, you didnt say that Doc. The kudos went to Mike Page and the Ghost. I think the old saying is, "I give 'em gold, and all they give me is a hard time."

the Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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Yes, it does

Yes, it does

gulfportdoc said:
That's right, Dick. It's desirable anyway it turns out. The shot actually plays very easily with low english. The shot doesn't seem to work on the short rail (at the foot of the table); at least on our wet tables here on the Miss. Gulf Coast. Freddy suggests using a masse-like low stroke.

Doc


I'll work just fine on the bottom rail. I never said anything about a masse-like stroke. The 30 degree (that's the angle) elevation just allows you to skid or slide the Q ball into the Ob ball.
It's amazing how everybody already knows this shot, but how come in 50 years of playing only a few guys have ever played it on me with confidence. The few times it was, most of the times it fell in was because the table leaned that way. The only players I remember shooting it with elevation, no english (and confidence), were Bugs, Greg Sullivan, Cole Dixon, and Truman.

the Beard
No good deed goes unpunished
Not you Doc, you are at least acting like you just learned it
 
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