My Opinion On Opinions/Was Efren The Best Ever

Artie Bodendorfer

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Bobby said:
Oh I believe you Artie, you're the second pro player I've asked that question to, the other was Johnny Ervolino...he used to rave about Harold Worst. Johnny was pretty stingy when it came to praising other players, in fact besides Worst, he only praised Ralph Greenleaf and James Evans. But, he said it's hard to bet against Lassiter but if he played Worst I'd have to.
The two nine ball players would be Wimppy and EFren. Harold Worst would be the underdog against both players playing nine ball. BUt he could still win. And playing 3 cushion billiards or snooker it would be all harold worst. And balkline and straight rail and so on. But if Harold worest would have keep playing he would have been number one.And worst was a great shooter. I think he had to make the most balls of any player in one pocket you got 3 breacks and the first shot and you had to make a certain amount and worst had to make the most balls out of all the players.Worst was a complete monster. And he was fearless to go with it. And Everlino had a good opinion of players. And I think Ronnie would have taken Worst to. You can ask him if he is at the hall of fame dinner.
 

jay helfert

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gulfportdoc said:
Jay, that's a pretty accurate description of the comparison between RA and Efren in one-pocket. I don't think many will disagree that Efren has far and away the best 1P tournament record in recent history. Of course when Ronnie was playing, there were few tournaments after the Jansco era, or while Ronnie was still in his prime. In the gambling game, it's not so clear. I'd give the nod to RA.

Ronnie himself said that although Efren would probably have beat him, Efren would have been too tired to spend the dough. On several occasions I saw Ronnie gamble at 1P in his prime, and I've never seen anything like it to this day. His creativity, his run-out prowess, his agressiveness, and his banter made up a package that was unbeatable, and also utterly fascinating.

I don't know how Efren plays for the big cash. The only time I've watched him gamble was on the tape of Scott Frost beating him in Arizona a few months back. But in my opinion Efren in his prime would have been dominated by Ronnie in his time during any 1P gambling contest.

I don't believe Efren in his prime had to face the fierce line-up of one-pocket talent that Ronnie did in his prime. In tournaments there was Cliff and a few other good players, but most of the older 1P talent had started to fade away.

Both RA and Efren brought major innovations to pool. RA and his imitators took one-pocket to a new level with aggressiveness and accuracy: run-out 1P, if you will (e.g., Chohan and Frost are good examples of his legacy). In their primes, both players brought a stunning freshness to the game.

Doc


I've also read that quote where Ronnie says Efren would probably have beat him. It's typical Ronnie. He was NEVER one to ballyhoo his own game. When everyone else was calling him the best One Pocket player in the world, you would NEVER hear Ronnie call himself that. He might instead tell you how tough a game he had with Kelly or Jersey Red. Or remind you that Taylor knocked him out of the last Stardust tourney.

Nowadays, every pool player wants to tell you how great he is. Ronnie didn't do that. His natural style was to build up his opponents game. I staked Ronnie a few times, and he never said he had a good game, or way the best of it. He always said he had to outrun the nuts to win. And who knows, maybe he did. He was constantly giving weight to very good players. And beating them.

In tournaments (where I also staked him) Ronnie always respected his opponents ability, and never degraded the guy. Before matches he might talk about the guy's skills and what he had to do to combat them. He would usually compliment his opponent after a loss as well, being humble in his victory. For all his talk and gamesmanship, Ronnie always built up his opponent, never tore him down. Kind of like Billy Cardone that way.

In private he might tell me how much weight he thought he could give a guy, but publicly he kept that a secret. I can tell you all now, Ronnie felt like HIS break was worth four balls in One Pocket, not two like so many other people believe.
 

jay helfert

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gbru said:
Artie

You keep saying nobody could dominate in a short race of 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 7.............But Efren did!

I didn't see Ronnie and Bugs and the other old timers in their prime ( I know there were some great players), but I know they didn't dominate for 5 years in a row like Efren did in a tournament. They won a lot of games and matches but none of them took the top one pocket honors in a field of 400 players 5 years in a row in the # 1 event in the world.

You and Doc and Jay and others can contend that Efren didn't have the field of players that were around 30 years ago and you may be right. But there were some excellent players at Derby City that had to be defeated 5 years in a row to gain the top honors . And to repeat, Efren did it in very short races. You are a gambler and you know something about odds. The odds of that are astromomical! Wouldn't you say?

I truly wish I could have seen Ronnie play in his prime. Maybe some where there are some old movie films. He must have really been something the way everybody keeps talking about him.

george:confused:

Efren winning all those One Pocket titles (five I think) at DCC against huge fields playing short races is simply amazing to me. To say that he is the best One Pocket player of this era is an understatement. I doubt very much Ronnie in his prime could have done anything like it. He may have won a couple or three, but not five in a row. One thing I will say though, if they both made it to the finals with the money on the line, in that match I'd take Ronnie.

I think part of Efren's success is the huge intimidation factor he has going for him. Players seem to wilt before him. It reminds me of when a good player is holding the table in a bar and no one can beat him. Even when a weaker player has a chance to win a game, they mess up somehow.

In Ronnie's day, guys like Jersey Red and Ed Kelly were not intimidated by Ronnie. They frequently matched up with him, and wanted badly to beat him. In a tournament, guys like Taylor, Shorty, Ervolino and Cornbread were gunning for Ronnie and trying to knock him out. Shorty won more One Pocket tourneys than Ronnie back then. But would he play him even up for the cash. NO WAY!
 
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jay helfert

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I have a lot of respect for Artie when he talks about Harold Worst. I've always said when asked who the best player I ever saw was, that it was HAROLD WORST! My stock answer all these years was Worst was Best!

Everything Artie says is true. No top player of his era wanted to even discuss playing a money game with him. Even Lassiter drew the line playing Worst 9-Ball for money. He was afraid that he might lose his rep as the best 9-Ball player.

Worst was unique, kind of like Efren in a way. If you showed him a game with sticks and balls, he would master it fairly quickly. If he wanted to be the best One Pocket player in the world, Ronnie would have been in trouble. And you know how strong I think Ronnie was. Harold Worst was a unique man, a real man's man. Courteous, humble but proud. And like Artie said, he wasn't afraid to bet his own money. In fact, he wouldn't consider having a backer. That would have been demeaning to him.

Probably the closest to Worst was Rags Fitzpatrick from the 50's. ALL the players said he was unbeatable. I'll never forget the final year (1965 I believe) that Worst won the Stardust tourney. He looked anemic to me, having lost so much weight from his once healthy and robust frame. No one knew how sick he was. He was not one to complain or make excuses. He won anyway. And only a few months later he was gone.
 

fred bentivegna

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I said it was a no-no

I said it was a no-no

DaddysVisa said:
But I think he won it every year he entered it aside from 2008, where he lost both by a series of uncharacteristic missed shots by himself combined with maybe the greatest 8-and out ever caught on tape by Alex Pagulayan when Alex needed all 8 balls left on the table to win hill-hill. So my recollection is that he won it the first 5 times he entered the event, but someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong.

I broadcast that match, and said it was a mistake for Efren to leave Alex that give-up cross-corner that started his run, when he could have played more passively and "cleaned" up the balls.

the Beard
 

fred bentivegna

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The Dutchman

The Dutchman

jay helfert said:
I have a lot of respect for Artie when he talks about Harold Worst. I've always said when asked who the best player I ever saw was, that it was HAROLD WORST! My stock answer all these years was Worst was Best!

Everything Artie says is true. No top player of his era wanted to even discuss playing a money game with him. Even Lassiter drew the line playing Worst 9-Ball for money. He was afraid that he might lose his rep as the best 9-Ball player.

Worst was unique, kind of like Efren in a way. If you showed him a game with sticks and balls, he would master it fairly quickly. If he wanted to be the best One Pocket player in the world, Ronnie would have been in trouble. And you know how strong I think Ronnie was. Harold Worst was a unique man, a real man's man. Courteous, humble but proud. And like Artie said, he wasn't afraid to bet his own money. In fact, he wouldn't consider having a backer. That would have been demeaning to him.

Probably the closest to Worst was Rags Fitzpatrick from the 50's. ALL the players said he was unbeatable. I'll never forget the final year (1965 I believe) that Worst won the Stardust tourney. He looked anemic to me, having lost so much weight from his once healthy and robust frame. No one knew how sick he was. He was not one to complain or make excuses. He won anyway. And only a few months later he was gone.

I've got ninety stories about The Dutchman, Harold Worst, but I'll keep it brief and say this, nobody wanted to play him even -- anything! Every game he made he would bet all the money anybody wanted to bet. Everybody who played him -- I watched -- their back hand would tremble!

the Beard
 

gulfportdoc

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jay helfert said:
I've also read that quote where Ronnie says Efren would probably have beat him. It's typical Ronnie. He was NEVER one to ballyhoo his own game. When everyone else was calling him the best One Pocket player in the world, you would NEVER hear Ronnie call himself that. He might instead tell you how tough a game he had with Kelly or Jersey Red. Or remind you that Taylor knocked him out of the last Stardust tourney.
Yes, I heard Ronnie say that to some commentators on a 1P tape, and I just assumed it was a "stock quote" he typically used to take attention off himself, and to be humorous at the same time. Now that you mention it, I never did hear him brag about his being better than any other named player. He'd lament about the fact that no one has any gamble anymore, but instead guys would walk bare-footed in the desert to play a tiddly-winks tournament on top of a camel's back...:rolleyes:

Doc
 

Artie Bodendorfer

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jay helfert said:
Efren winning all those One Pocket titles (five I think) at DCC against huge fields playing short races is simply amazing to me. To say that he is the best One Pocket player of this era is an understatement. I doubt very much Ronnie in his prime could have done anything like it. He may have won a couple or three, but not five in a row. One thing I will say though, if they both made it to the finals with the money on the line, in that match I'd take Ronnie.

I think part of Efren's success is the huge intimidation factor he has going for him. Players seem to wilt before him. It reminds me of when a good player is holding the table in a bar and no one can beat him. Even when a weaker player has a chance to win a game, they mess up somehow.

In Ronnie's day, guys like Jersey Red and Ed Kelly were not intimidated by Ronnie. They frequently matched up with him, and wanted badly to beat him. In a tournament, guys like Taylor, Shorty, Ervolino and Cornbread were gunning for Ronnie and trying to knock him out. Shorty won more One Pocket tourneys than Ronnie back then. But would he play him even up for the cash. NO WAY!
The players back then were better and Efren would not have one 5 in a row. We have to give him credit for his great accompisment But even back then a lot of the best onepocket players did not play in the tournaments. And I would like to ask just for myself. Did Efren win 5 one pocket tournamets in a row?And its always hard to pick out the best player and people go by thier record and thier performance. Did Efren bet his own money agenst the top player and why not? And Harold worst was way more talanted in all the pool games and Billiard games and snooker he played everything world class. It sure would have been great to watch Harold Worst and Efren play all games against each other. And if the both had to bet thier own money. I make Harold Worst a 2 to1 favorite. And A players game will get worse when the bet thier own money the Fear of loosing thier own is way different then getting a free role. Especialy betting high. It could change a players thinking and stroke. And I think Ronnie was the better one pocket player in his prime and Efren in his prime. And again the did not have all those tournaments back in Ronnies prime so you cannot compare the two generations. And playing another great player buts pressure on the other great player and changes his game.The only real wayb and honest way to compair them if the play each other 10 or 15 times in thier prime. And that will and cannot happen. SO ALL WE ARE LEFT WITH IS OUR OPINONS. And Efren was the best in his prime and time. Just like 10 years from now a new Star will arize and he will get compared to EFren Ronnie Worst Taylor Bugs and meny more. And it gives us something to voice our opinion and put out our thoughts and feelings. And I respect all talent. Even theplayers that were not champions. Whats that song WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS. I am proud that the are humans and the greatest players.
 

jay helfert

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Worst was probably the only American ever, who could have gone to Great Britain and challenged the Snooker stars too. If he had been alive when Snooker got big, I suspect he would have gone over there. In six months he would have been contending for titles. That's just my opinion.

He just had a stronger mind (and will) than anyone else. And he had better control of his body, the best self discipline ever. He would have taken those little balls and shoved them up all their asses. :p

Just kidding, just kidding!

One last thing, and it's important I believe. The two men who had the most solid stance at a table that I've ever seen were Raymond Ceuelmans and Harold Worst. Both were solid as a rock. Buddy and Mizerak would be distant thirds to these two guys.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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jay helfert said:
The two men who had the most solid stance at a table that I've ever seen were Raymond Ceuelmans and Harold Worst. Both were solid as a rock. Buddy and Mizerak would be distant thirds to these two guys.


Well I'll name a guy who I think is solid as a rock at the table....he doesn't have the size/body mass that Buddy and Steve had/have to anchor them down (and I know he's glad of that, lol) - with that spread out stance of his, my choice is our own Billy Incardona.

- Ghost
 
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gulfportdoc

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jay helfert said:
The two men who had the most solid stance at a table that I've ever seen were Raymond Ceuelmans and Harold Worst.
Wasn't it Ceulemans who Robert Byrne tells the story about years back watching him in a big tournament. Ceulemans put on his glasses, came to the table, ran a few points, then he stopped, stood up and said, "These aren't my glasses!". Byrne turned to his friend and whispered, "Wouldn't it be funnier if Ceulemans had said, "Hey, I don't even WEAR glasses!" He said they got to laughing so hard that they had to leave the bleachers.

Doc
 

Betdapot

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From around 2000-2007 I seen Efren play imo the best onepocket that has been played every time he got down with someone you would hear what the game was and people would chirp he can't win against a squeezer giving that game, guess what he batted almost 1000 dueing that time frame tournaments, match ups didnt matter he not only played more then a ball better then anyone else he also had the Effie factor. Biggest convert moment for me was hopkins leading him 6 to -1 while trailing a few games Allen moved all the balls up in the kitchen Efren banks a tough ball then gets behind the rest to go 9 and out while never selling out if he would have missed was sick
 

Cowboy Dennis

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Efren is the best shooting one pocket player. Bugs and Ronnie were the best two aggressive one pocket players. And Eddie Taylor was the king out of all these players PLaying one pocket banks and nineball. He is the best in life of any player in all 3 games. Not one game. Taylor gets my vote.

What was that again???

Dennis
 

petie

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Wasn't it Ceulemans who Robert Byrne tells the story about years back watching him in a big tournament. Ceulemans put on his glasses, came to the table, ran a few points, then he stopped, stood up and said, "These aren't my glasses!". Byrne turned to his friend and whispered, "Wouldn't it be funnier if Ceulemans had said, "Hey, I don't even WEAR glasses!" He said they got to laughing so hard that they had to leave the bleachers.

Doc

The story goes that Bugs picked up a house cue, ran 3 banks, and then discovered it didn't have a tip on it.
 

Ross Keith Thompson

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best ever one holer

best ever one holer

Never saw Efren play but I've seen Ronnie Allen play. Played him a couple of times myself and was he nasty. Watched him spot Jersey Red 9 to 8 in Houston and broke even I believe. All the great players of the late sixties and early to late seventies couldn't deal with Ronnie's game. I have seen Efren play on TV and he was superb, no doubt he was a dominant player just like Ronnie and has earned the right to be brought in to the best player conversation along with other greats. Luther Lassiter was as nasty as they come at all games, Eddie Kelly also, Irving Crane and so on. At 1970 Johnston City you could play a world class one pocket player every night for three weeks and there was still a line of them to play. But I think this guy Efren has carved his name good enough into the lore of the pool rooms to get serious mention and tip my hat to him as a great player along side of the legends of pool. But in most cases the best players seem to shy away from each other due to the fact you can't make a living playing that kind of action. Fortunately I've seen back room games that were better than any tournament games. Grew up watching Jersey Red spot everybody that came thru Houston playing one pocket. He also should be mentioned in the greatest ever.
 

LSJohn

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Am I crazy thinking that Greg Stevens deserves at least honorable mention, especially in rotation games and snooker?

As I heard it -- think it was 1971 -- he robbed everyone at a big tournament in Houston, playing 72 hours straight, only to go broke after his mixture finally failed him the 4th day.

And I saw him do unbelievable stuff on a 9-ft snooker table. He'd make prop bets re beak, ball-in-hand, and running out using pool balls on that medium-tight table... and that was past his prime.
 

androd

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Am I crazy thinking that Greg Stevens deserves at least honorable mention, especially in rotation games and snooker?

As I heard it -- think it was 1971 -- he robbed everyone at a big tournament in Houston, playing 72 hours straight, only to go broke after his mixture finally failed him the 4th day.

And I saw him do unbelievable stuff on a 9-ft snooker table. He'd make prop bets re beak, ball-in-hand, and running out using pool balls on that medium-tight table... and that was past his prime.

Let'em all play their best pool and he was the best of all.
Rod.
P.S. Here's a few that are mentioned.
 

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