Can this be made?

darmoose

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Gambling yesterday and was left here (in my pocket). Everything is frozen.

HI Mitch

I bet you made it. Since everything is frozen, you may shoot into the OB so long as you make a good stroke and do not pushthe ball, as I understand it.

So, you simply hit CB with three oclock English, putting left on the OB to roll it into the pocket while the CB moves away to the right.

That's what you did, in't it?:eek::eek:;)............




View attachment 11587

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Patrick Johnson

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darmoose:
...simply hit CB with three oclock English, putting left on the OB to roll it into the pocket while the CB moves away to the right.
With the OB trapped against the cushion, that might result in a push if you're not careful. I'd use right English, but jacked up.

pj
chgo
 

Tom Wirth

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Mitch, this is a fairly easy shot but requires a bit of a trick.

With a nearly vertical cue, shoot a right english masse but KEEP YOUR BRIDGE HAND OFF THE TABLE. This allows the cue to twist as the tip goes through the cue ball and that turns the OB in the hole. Legal shot.

Tom
 

straightback

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Is there such a thing as a push shot when CB and OB are frozen ?
Rod.

The way I understand it is you can do whatever you want (when they are froze) as long as it one continuous stroke. In other words, a push could occur if you sort of "chase" the CB with the tip, hitting it several times blatantly.
 

Mkbtank

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Can this be made?

The way I understand it is you can do whatever you want (when they are froze) as long as it one continuous stroke. In other words, a push could occur if you sort of "chase" the CB with the tip, hitting it several times blatantly.


I was worried about this. Opponent let me know that he was getting someone to watch if I was going to shoot it.

Also- and more importantly, there were 14 other balls on the table still, including by my opponents hole.

So, for those reasons, and the fact that we were playing 50 a game, I shot away from the ball, and tried to hide him by his corner.

I was curious though, and appreciate the replies. I was thinking lots of right hand English (3:09 as someone said). One of my new rules this year is not to try to learn or experiment in the middle of a money game. This has burnt me many times lol.

Tom I will check out your solution as well. Will be good to know for next time :)
 

Tom Wirth

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Is there such a thing as a push shot when CB and OB are frozen ?
Rod.

The way I understand it is you can do whatever you want (when they are froze) as long as it one continuous stroke. In other words, a push could occur if you sort of "chase" the CB with the tip, hitting it several times blatantly.

I was worried about this. Opponent let me know that he was getting someone to watch if I was going to shoot it.

Also- and more importantly, there were 14 other balls on the table still, including by my opponents hole.

So, for those reasons, and the fact that we were playing 50 a game, I shot away from the ball, and tried to hide him by his corner.

I was curious though, and appreciate the replies. I was thinking lots of right hand English (3:09 as someone said). One of my new rules this year is not to try to learn or experiment in the middle of a money game. This has burnt me many times lol.

Tom I will check out your solution as well. Will be good to know for next time :)

Guys, as I understand the rule, if the cue ball and object ball are frozen anywhere away from a cushion you are allowed to shoot through the two balls as long as the cue ball doesn't travel faster than the object ball. The difference here is that that two balls are also frozen directly to the facing of the pocket. This changes everything. To shoot directly toward the object ball means you are trapping the object ball and cue ball between the tip and the rail. This is a foul. That's why the cue ball must be driven on a severe angle from the center of the object ball or a full masse with the bridge hand off the table so your hand can twist the ball in.

Tom
 

straightback

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Guys, as I understand the rule, if the cue ball and object ball are frozen anywhere away from a cushion you are allowed to shoot through the two balls as long as the cue ball doesn't travel faster than the object ball. The difference here is that that two balls are also frozen directly to the facing of the pocket. This changes everything. To shoot directly toward the object ball means you are trapping the object ball and cue ball between the tip and the rail. This is a foul. That's why the cue ball must be driven on a severe angle from the center of the object ball or a full masse with the bridge hand off the table so your hand can twist the ball in.

Tom

Tom, as it is currently played in major 9-ball tournaments, you need not hit away from a frozen ball and ball speed is irrelevant. The "ball speed test" in my experience only comes into play as a test to see if there's been a foul when the balls are close but not frozen. That is, if the balls are not froze but the man decides to attempt a good, straight on hit, a foul has been committed when the CB is moving close to the speed of the object ball, on the theory that there is no possible way you could generate that amount of topspin and speed in such a short distance.

The only time I have seen a player required to hit away from a frozen ball is when your shot would push through more than 1 ball, such as when you are stuck on the rack. Although many players elect against driving through a ball at Derby during the 1p event, I have seen numerous players do it and commentary to the effect that it is legal. (If DD is on the mic, he nearly always adds that this a chance over the traditional straight pool rules.)

At any rate, I believe this to be the current state of the rule.

The limit of the rule, I think, is chasing or trapping the cue ball, as Tom and I have collectively alluded to. At any rate, I agree, if you're gonna legally pocket this ball, it needs to be with a masse so that you only have one (long) contact with the CB.

You can practice this shot if you like. Or not. You'll probably see it once a year at best!
 
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Tom Wirth

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Tom, as it is currently played in major 9-ball tournaments, you need not hit away from a frozen ball and ball speed is irrelevant. The "ball speed test" in my experience only comes into play as a test to see if there's been a foul when the balls are close but not frozen. That is, if the balls are not froze but the man decides to attempt a good, straight on hit, a foul has been committed when the CB is moving close to the speed of the object ball, on the theory that there is no possible way you could generate that amount of topspin and speed in such a short distance.

The only time I have seen a player required to hit away from a frozen ball is when your shot would push through more than 1 ball, such as when you are stuck on the rack. Although many players elect against driving through a ball at Derby during the 1p event, I have seen numerous players do it and commentary to the effect that it is legal. (If DD is on the mic, he nearly always adds that this a chance over the traditional straight pool rules.)

At any rate, I believe this to be the current state of the rule.
The limit of the rule, I think, is chasing or trapping the cue ball, as Tom and I have collectively alluded to. At any rate, I agree, if you're gonna legally pocket this ball, it needs to be with a masse so that you only have one (long) contact with the CB.
You can practice this shot if you like. Or not. You'll probably see it once a year at best!


Dan, In looking up this rule I found little regarding shooting directly through frozen balls, however shooting directly through an object ball which is close but not frozen and force the cue ball forward will draw a foul every time regardless of the speed employed. I remember a time when this was not the case and shooting through a near frozen ball was fine as long as it was one continuous stroke. This is no longer the rule in tournament play, including the DCC. I had this very shot scrutinized by a ref. at the Derby this past year.

I also have been witness to fouls called on players who have shot directly through frozen object balls while allowing the cue ball to run quickly past the object ball as they both traveled down the table. The reason for this call stems from the fact that the shooter has held the cue tip too long on the cue ball as he has followed through the shot.

Personally, I prefer the old rule which allows a player to shoot with one stroke any shot he chooses. This makes it easy to make rulings and is equal for both players.

Tom
 

straightback

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Dan, In looking up this rule I found little regarding shooting directly through frozen balls, however shooting directly through an object ball which is close but not frozen and force the cue ball forward will draw a foul every time regardless of the speed employed. I remember a time when this was not the case and shooting through a near frozen ball was fine as long as it was one continuous stroke. This is no longer the rule in tournament play, including the DCC. I had this very shot scrutinized by a ref. at the Derby this past year.

I also have been witness to fouls called on players who have shot directly through frozen object balls while allowing the cue ball to run quickly past the object ball as they both traveled down the table. The reason for this call stems from the fact that the shooter has held the cue tip too long on the cue ball as he has followed through the shot.

Personally, I prefer the old rule which allows a player to shoot with one stroke any shot he chooses. This makes it easy to make rulings and is equal for both players.

Tom

Like a lot of rules in pool, there are multiple rules that have been employed at different times. However, I feel confident in telling folks that at Derby, if the CB is frozen to another ball, and the shooting player calls it as frozen and the other player agrees, that player can employ one fluid stroke in any direction, UNLESS that frozen ball is next to other balls that would also be pushed. The situation that would result in a foul I can fathom is the two we have elucidated: trapping a ball against a cushion or continuing on with the stroke for a long way and blatantly hitting the cue ball multiple times.

Now, on to non-frozen balls. Where an object ball is an inch or so away from a CB, it is damn near impossible to make a good hit by hitting the ball full in the face. You would need to either masse the ball or employ the trick where the table stops your back hand (the cigarette trick shot). I am a big stickler about this rule because a lot of times, I have played a kickass safety, nearly freezing a man on a ball. There is no legal escape, but by double hitting the CB, the man can evacuate a CB illegally. Nothing gets under my skin more that someone either doing this purposefully or even doing it negligently (who the hell actually thinks they can ram a ball 1" away and not hit the CB 2 or 3 times?!?)
 

Tom Wirth

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Like a lot of rules in pool, there are multiple rules that have been employed at different times. However, I feel confident in telling folks that at Derby, if the CB is frozen to another ball, and the shooting player calls it as frozen and the other player agrees, that player can employ one fluid stroke in any direction, UNLESS that frozen ball is next to other balls that would also be pushed. The situation that would result in a foul I can fathom is the two we have elucidated: trapping a ball against a cushion or continuing on with the stroke for a long way and blatantly hitting the cue ball multiple times.


To this I can cheerfully agree. :)
Tom
 

Patrick Johnson

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Here's the WPA rule (http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play#6.7).

pj
chgo

6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made.
However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.)
The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.
 

3RAILKICK

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.......


Now, on to non-frozen balls. Where an object ball is an inch or so away from a CB, it is damn near impossible to make a good hit by hitting the ball full in the face. You would need to either masse the ball or employ the trick where the table stops your back hand (the cigarette trick shot). I am a big stickler about this rule because a lot of times, I have played a kickass safety, nearly freezing a man on a ball. There is no legal escape, but by double hitting the CB, the man can evacuate a CB illegally. Nothing gets under my skin more that someone either doing this purposefully or even doing it negligently (who the hell actually thinks they can ram a ball 1" away and not hit the CB 2 or 3 times?!?)[/QUOTE]





Uh...everyone ('cept me and another guy) at my senior center. But then, he and I are the only ones who can draw the ball...at all.:eek:

They say it's OK since we're not pros...:frus

I have given up.....when in Rome...clak clak is allowed.:sorry


...but they can snooker the heck out of you. Apparently, if snookered...you have to declare it, have somebody confirm it, then must kick to make a hit, and NO MASSE to make the hit.

It is what it is, there.
 

straightback

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.......
Now, on to non-frozen balls. Where an object ball is an inch or so away from a CB, it is damn near impossible to make a good hit by hitting the ball full in the face. You would need to either masse the ball or employ the trick where the table stops your back hand (the cigarette trick shot). I am a big stickler about this rule because a lot of times, I have played a kickass safety, nearly freezing a man on a ball. There is no legal escape, but by double hitting the CB, the man can evacuate a CB illegally. Nothing gets under my skin more that someone either doing this purposefully or even doing it negligently (who the hell actually thinks they can ram a ball 1" away and not hit the CB 2 or 3 times?!?)





Uh...everyone ('cept me and another guy) at my senior center. But then, he and I are the only ones who can draw the ball...at all.:eek:

They say it's OK since we're not pros...:frus

I have given up.....when in Rome...clak clak is allowed.:sorry


...but they can snooker the heck out of you. Apparently, if snookered...you have to declare it, have somebody confirm it, then must kick to make a hit, and NO MASSE to make the hit.

It is what it is, there.

I hope you know what you just said because I do not.
 

lll

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wouldnt this work??
direction of shot (yellow) spin (red...outside)
hand in the air to avoid the cue bal hitting the cue ...cue not vertical
even if there is a double kiss it should go in???
just askin
p.s.
mitch you must be a high roller if you use quarters to mark the balls you owe.....:lol.....:D
can you make this.jpg
 

lll

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Like a lot of rules in pool, there are multiple rules that have been employed at different times. However, I feel confident in telling folks that at Derby, if the CB is frozen to another ball, and the shooting player calls it as frozen and the other player agrees, that player can employ one fluid stroke in any direction, UNLESS that frozen ball is next to other balls that would also be pushed. The situation that would result in a foul I can fathom is the two we have elucidated: trapping a ball against a cushion or continuing on with the stroke for a long way and blatantly hitting the cue ball multiple times.

Now, on to non-frozen balls. Where an object ball is an inch or so away from a CB, it is damn near impossible to make a good hit by hitting the ball full in the face. You would need to either masse the ball or employ the trick where the table stops your back hand (the cigarette trick shot). I am a big stickler about this rule because a lot of times, I have played a kickass safety, nearly freezing a man on a ball. There is no legal escape, but by double hitting the CB, the man can evacuate a CB illegally. Nothing gets under my skin more that someone either doing this purposefully or even doing it negligently (who the hell actually thinks they can ram a ball 1" away and not hit the CB 2 or 3 times?!?)

what is the cugarette trick shot..?..:eek:..:eek:...:eek:.....:eek:
 
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