Rules Question

baby huey

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I need some help here. What are our rules regarding the movement of two object balls with your cue stick after the cueball has been struck? The cueball struck the intended object ball and in removing his cuestick from the playing area my opponent touched two other balls unintentionally. I thought it was a foul and loss of a ball? This occured by my opponent, a friend who is a stickler for following the rules. We had a heated discussion and I asked him; "if you can move two balls and it's ok, why not move more balls and that's ok too.? I was beating on him pretty good that day and was trying to torture him a little more with this rule. A huge LOL for me that day. I had fun breaking his balls.
 

gulfportdoc

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Jerry, 1po.org rules, and the WPA rules are pretty much in agreement on this subject. When playing "cue ball fouls only", if an object ball is accidentally moved by a player, the the opponent has the option of allowing it to stay where it lays, or replacing it. I'm sure it's the same if two balls are moved. The shooter continues without a foul against him. The offending player must wait to see what the opponent elects to do.

However, if the ball moves to a position that would (or did) effect the outcome of the shot, then it is an automatic standard foul. If too many balls are moved to where replacement is not possible, then it's loss of game.

These types of rules are rarely discussed prior to private games commencing. So without an agreement before hand, it becomes a negotiation..;)

~Doc
 

lll

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I need some help here. What are our rules regarding the movement of two object balls with your cue stick after the cueball has been struck? The cueball struck the intended object ball and in removing his cuestick from the playing area my opponent touched two other balls unintentionally. I thought it was a foul and loss of a ball? This occured by my opponent, a friend who is a stickler for following the rules. We had a heated discussion and I asked him; "if you can move two balls and it's ok, why not move more balls and that's ok too.? I was beating on him pretty good that day and was trying to torture him a little more with this rule. A huge LOL for me that day. I had fun breaking his balls.
i cant find the rule but i beleive if you move 2 balls its loss of game for the reason bolded above
 

Tobermory

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Around here we play cue ball foul only unless more than one ball is moved, which is a foul, loss of ball, the balls play where they lay.

Derby City rules conform (or we conform) to that rule:

"Cue Ball Fouls Only

Accidentally touching or disturbing a single object ball is not a foul unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot. See a referee for advice if you think this has happened. Otherwise, the opponent has the option to restore the disturbed ball or leave it in position. If the offending player attempts to restore the disturbed ball without giving their opponent the restoration option, it is a foul.

Accidentally touching or disturbing 2 or more object balls is a foul, and there is no restoration option for the disturbed balls."


We also play that a single ball moved that effects or crosses (or might effect or cross) the path of the cue ball is also a foul.

As you say, Jerry, without such a rule, why not just rake all the balls towards your corner. Without a referee, you won't get an unsportsmanlike conduct call.
 

beatle

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i was playing a guy for decent cash a short time ago and after his shot he was reaching for he hit most of the balls on the table and scattered them all over.
he asked what to do. i said put them back about where they were. he said he had no idea and wanted to know the rule and said it was at least a foul. i said it is my choice to move them back or leave them so lets leave them.

things can go both ways. and who do you want to play a stickler for the rules or an i dont care just play type of guy.
 

Tobermory

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Our 1p.org rules, which seem to have been written to reflect the high ethical standards and conduct of our members, is clear as to the movement of one ball, but slightly ambiguous as it pertains to more than one ball. It implies that if more than one ball is moved, it is not a foul, and the balls should be restored as close to their original positions as possible. Seems fraught with peril.

6.1 Unless otherwise announced by the tournament director, One Pocket is played according to the World General Rules 1.16.1, ‘cue ball fouls only’. In the event that a player accidentally moves a ball, the opponent may elect to have the disturbed ball remain in its new position or be restored to its original position. When balls are restored, they shall be placed as close as possible to their original positions, with no advantage to be gained by the offending player. If no official is available to restore disturbed balls, then the players must come to agreement on satisfactory replacement of the disturbed balls prior to continuing play.

6.6 Intentional fouls are an accepted part of One Pocket tactics as long as they are played by use of a legal stroke, such as by lightly touching the cue ball with the cue tip; by rolling the cue ball to a new location without regard for legal contact with either an object ball or a cushion; by pocket scratching the cue ball; or by using a legal jump technique to force the cue ball off the table. However, if the acting official rules that a player has used an illegal technique to direct the cue ball or any object balls to a more desirable location, then the incoming player has the option of either playing the balls where they lie, or requesting the official to restore all such moved balls to their location prior to the illegal maneuver. The offending player is charged the standard one ball foul penalty, and in addition may be further penalized at the discretion of the acting official under the general rules of unsportsmanlike conduct.
 

jtompilot

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Everyone I know plays move two balls it’s a foul. However I always confirm this and when is a ball in the kitchen(the whole ball must be past the line), and how to play a made ball on the break.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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WPA Rule Regulations:
WPA Cue Ball Foul Only rule 21: touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would 'not' be a foul. Lets talk about this part of the rule; What does 'any ball' mean; "does it mean a singular ball"? Or does it mean; "more than one singular ball"? I am perplexed!
It further continues: unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. So Lets talk about this; "it only references a lone singular ball, so one would possibly surmise that the answer to the first part of the sentence is that it is referring to a singular ball".
It further continues referencing the restoration of a singular ball.

But when we go to General Rule 1.8 Restoring a Position: it references 'Disturbed Balls' to 'their' original position. So this is definitely plural in meaning. So there by confusing the rule 21, for there is no mentioning of a single ball, it is just not inclusive. So why did the writer leave it out. I call this 'the all knowing' writing, for the writer knows and you do not.

Conclusion; A lot of times in rule writing the writer is being cute and all knowing to a fault. Meaning; they know what they are saying, and even by not saying something there is actual meaning way beyond what is written. Example; By not saying it is legal to disturb more balls than one then it is assumed to be illegal, unless we interpret 'any ball' as plural (ambiguity). So why not just say it is 'illegal or legal' to disturb more than one ball that has no effect upon another ball or the shot!

IMO we should decide on this thread if we want more than one ball inadvertently disturbed to be a foul or not. I vote it is a foul. Whitey
 
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Wayne

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Moving 1 ball no foul. Moving 2 or more balls = FOUL. :frus

If it is not written clearly this way in the rules then whoever is in charge needs to write it so it is clear. (Moving 1 ball doesn't alter the game because it can easily be replaced, moving 2 or more balls does alter the game and sometimes it would be almost impossible to replace them.)

Also:
If you move 1 ball thinking the game is over when it is not, you replace it. Moving 2 or more = loss of game.
 

cincy_kid

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That's how I always play too... Cue Ball Fouls only, if you move 1 ball, opponent can place back where he thinks it was, if you move 2 or more its a foul.

Like the pilot said, it's a good idea to discuss these things up front to avoid any problems later.
 

tucson9ball

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I need some help here. What are our rules regarding the movement of two object balls with your cue stick after the cueball has been struck? The cueball struck the intended object ball and in removing his cuestick from the playing area my opponent touched two other balls unintentionally. I thought it was a foul and loss of a ball? This occured by my opponent, a friend who is a stickler for following the rules. We had a heated discussion and I asked him; "if you can move two balls and it's ok, why not move more balls and that's ok too.? I was beating on him pretty good that day and was trying to torture him a little more with this rule. A huge LOL for me that day. I had fun breaking his balls.


If moving two balls is not a foul, what about raking all 15 toward your pocket?
Seriously, I've always played moving two is a foul....spot up a ball.
 

beatle

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if you rake all 15 balls toward your pocket the opponent gets to put them back where he thinks they were and he decides that, so i hope my opponent does that on every shot.

no one does any of this stuff all they do is make a mistake and move some balls. so why not just move them back and continue.
 

baby huey

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Thanks guys; it's hard to write rules sometimes. I think the shooters intention has a lot to do with rules questions. But who's to really know what the shooters intention really was anyway. Conversely, some players use what I call bad rules to their advantage like trapping the cueball in the pocket on intentional scratches. In our group we try to be professional and that's one of the reasons I love our site so much. Just play the game with a high standard for yourself and expect the same from your opponent.
 

LSJohn

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If moving two balls is not a foul, what about raking all 15 toward your pocket?
Seriously, I've always played moving two is a foul....spot up a ball.

As far as I know, that was the rule in every tournament I've played in. People who don't play tournaments can easily have a different view, but for tournament play I've never seen anything else.

One thing about it some people do miss: If a foul is charged, balls are not moved back. When one ball is moved and no foul is charged, opponent has the move-back option.
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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I am suggesting that one does not make the comparison of accidently moving more than one ball, with intentionally raking the balls with the cue stick. Intentionally raking the balls is an act of conceding the game, plus could carry further penalties, and yes it does happen. Schmidt did this in a CWO tournament and the head ref. told me about it and he was very mad with himself for not docking Schmidt a game for the unsportsmanlike act.

DCC tournament goes by bcapl general rules, but does have the ability to alter rules in governing their own tournament. In bcapl cue ball foul only rules; it is a foul to accidently disturb more than one ball even though there is no effect upon the shot, and there is no restoration option.

The restoration part of it has been long disputed to the rule committee by ref's and members, that the restoration option should be allowed. Their argument is if there is no effect upon the shot then the restoration should be allowed. The rule committee's argument back is that; since the player receives ball in hand any where on the table it could offset any rare scenario that the balls could be left in a critical loss situation for the opponent.

IMO there should be an opponent's option to move the balls back, and this is why; say I disturb more than one ball, and one of which is the opponent's ball, and what would of been a open shot has now turned into a losing situation through no fault of the opponent. Or an opponent's ball that was open, and then I accidently raked my cue sideways on the shot and my balls accidently now have covered up his lone game winning ball, and now my opponent is in a no win situation. One can think of scenarios for OP also.

Here is a little know fact about bcapl! In which the rule committee has darn near sit their self up as god.
1.33 Disturbed Ball (cue ball foul only)
7. It is a foul if:
a. you disturb the cue ball;
b. you disturb more than one object ball;
c. a disturbed ball contacts any other ball;
c. you disturb a ball that is in motion.
Your opponent has no restoration option. If the game-winning ball is disturbed in conjunction with a violation of (a) through (d) and falls into a pocket, it is a loss of game.

Ok, in 8-ball then yes the game winning ball pocketed this way would be a loss, but they are applying this rule to 'All' games under their domain, including OP and Straight Pool. Here is an example of their godly act; Say I am playing 9-ball and I accidently disturb a ball and it then contacts the 9 and it falls in a hole, by this rule it is a loss of game.
We all know there is only two ways to lose in 9-ball; the 3 foul rule or by the opponent making the 9-ball, well my friends the bcapl has invented a new 3rd way, and it applies to all games. You'll need to visit bcapl AR's to get the full rule of rule 7. !
I know this is a long post but there is more to this stuff than what meets the eye. Whitey
 

LSJohn

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there is more to this stuff than what meets the eye.

The only things I see as controversial have to do with applying rotation or 8-ball rules to one-pocket.

So far, I've never seen that happen.

a through d above fit 1P very well.
 

El Chapo

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It is interesting if you watch the matches from the Phillipines on youtube, it is always a foul to touch any ball, no matter what game they play.

I think that would cause a lot of problems here, because these shifty bastards would say a guy touched a ball when he did not. I wonder how they handle that in the phillipines. Maybe they don't play foul on all balls when the match has no ref. The thing to like about foul on all balls is it is so clear and simple though, it is just that douchebag problem that would come up if we adopted it.
 

NH Steve

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It is interesting if you watch the matches from the Phillipines on youtube, it is always a foul to touch any ball, no matter what game they play.

I think that would cause a lot of problems here, because these shifty bastards would say a guy touched a ball when he did not. I wonder how they handle that in the phillipines. Maybe they don't play foul on all balls when the match has no ref. The thing to like about foul on all balls is it is so clear and simple though, it is just that douchebag problem that would come up if we adopted it.

There used to be plenty of those among the locals where I play -- it was a constant problem of "phantom fouls". Now at least we only play all ball fouls in league and tournament, when there are always either team captains watching closely or refs. Team captains still a bit iffy now and then lol.
 

NH Steve

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Our own rules never clearly specified if moving more than one ball was a foul, so we would currently be deferring to the standard rules. Now it sounds like the standard rules aren't so clear either, lol.

When we re-tighten our own rules we should clear that up. In the meantime, the question should be added to the short list that players who like to ask fresh opponents such questions, along with:

  • 3 fouls in effect?
  • whole ball or base of ball?
  • object ball off the table a foul or not?
  • cue ball fouls only -- except move two its a foul (or even potentially interfere with the shot even if you only moved one)
 
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