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Old 05-09-2019, 12:07 AM
vapros vapros is offline
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Default Do you see what I see?

Or more to the point, what does Efren see that I donít see? As his numero uno fan I watch his videos, hoping to see how he does it. Nothing to it Ė he walks up to the table and picks out a ball and bends over and knocks it into a pocket. He practically never has to walk around behind the shot to see the contact point on the object ball, because he already sees it. Of course, Efren is not unique in this regard. All the top players have this ability Ė some more than others, naturally Ė and including the members on this site who can play.

So, why canít I see it? Here in my old age I can shoot straighter than I ever have in my life. I have a table and I practice some every day. My stroke is not powerful, but it is straight, and I am making a lot of the long straight-in shots that have always terrorized me. But I canít aim. If I walk around behind the shot I can find the contact point and make a reasonable effort to hit it. But why canít I see it when I get to the table, like Bata and John and Django and you guys? Was it a natural gift for you?

My vision is okay Ė I see the edges of the ball just fine Ė but I do all my seeing with one eye, been that way all my life. One eye is pretty useless and so I have no depth perception to speak of. Is that the answer to my question? Itís a fact that I undercut when going to the left and overcut going to the right. Any one-eyed members here?

I decided two or three years ago not to go on the pro tour Ė I couldnít deal with all that traveling and all them billiard bunnies. What Iím hoping for today is some commentary on a topic thatís of great interest to me. And I donít think I want to hear about aiming systems. Efren doesnít use an aiming system and I want to do it like he does. Donít we all?
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Old 05-09-2019, 01:31 AM
Scrzbill Scrzbill is offline
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There was a WWED What would Efrin, anyway there was an obvious bank that without a kiss on a object ball negating any effort. I said at the time, Efrin finds ways to make shots work. He thinks that extra one step after most of us have gone to the next choice.
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:09 AM
beatle beatle is offline
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those that reach that kind of proficiency have both natural talent that others do not have. and they have put in more hard hours than the others that wish they had that ability.

one friend that was always messing with his golf swing trying to get it perfect and couldnt figure out why he couldnt hit the ball where he wanted all the time. i told him it was because he hadn't hit a million golf balls yet.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:09 AM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Vapos, I see you go behind the shot, and somehow this finds you the contact point. This is amazing for you can not visually see or keep your eye on the contact point as you walk back to do the shot.
So you now need or wish you can find the contact point from the front. Here is one method that I use, for example.

Put your OB on the spot, now line up your cb off from straight (slight angle) between the side pocket and the spot. Now eye from the cb straight into the corner pocket and see if the contact point on the ob pops out for you! If it does, great! If not, oh well, it does not pop out for all people. I call this 'triangulate'. First you have a straight line to the pocket from the cb, then in your mind there is a line to the ob (at contact point) then a line from the ob to the pocket, it forms a triangle. I came up with this method when instructing a pupil. It worked for him.

Another method of seeing the contact point: I first eye straight at the ob from the cb and then the contact point pops out for me. You can either do this before your down on the shot or after your down on the shot, then once you see the contact point then lay down on it. I like this method when I am sending the ob a long distance to the corner pockets.

For cut shots whereas I am sending the cb a long distance to the ob, I have no method to fall back on, I just see the angle and hit it. Unless it is a slight cut then I may fall back on using one of the above methods. For short to mid distance cut shots 30 or more degree cuts whereas the ob is closer, I may check the angle first then go back to the cb, and/or use the method of looking straight in line from the cb to ob first.

But when I was young and playing for real, I was like Efren, just shoot the shot. The more you play the quicker you see the shots. The last time I shot this way was back in 2011 in a regional, but I was able to see the shot before ever going down on the shot, and used no methods. This is key to shoot without missing, see the shot before you go down on it, not easy to do. But if you can do it, it makes the shot so much easier when your down on it.

I hope this is of help, I know oh so well the feeling of not seeing nothing, and going; "where is that contact point". Let me know if this helps! Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 05-09-2019 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 10:28 AM
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gulfportdoc gulfportdoc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapros View Post
...
So, why canít I see it? Here in my old age I can shoot straighter than I ever have in my life. I have a table and I practice some every day. My stroke is not powerful, but it is straight, and I am making a lot of the long straight-in shots that have always terrorized me. But I canít aim. If I walk around behind the shot I can find the contact point and make a reasonable effort to hit it. But why canít I see it when I get to the table, like Bata and John and Django and you guys? Was it a natural gift for you?

My vision is okay Ė I see the edges of the ball just fine Ė but I do all my seeing with one eye, been that way all my life. One eye is pretty useless and so I have no depth perception to speak of. Is that the answer to my question? Itís a fact that I undercut when going to the left and overcut going to the right. Any one-eyed members here?
...
I too have depth perception problems. For the past few years I've become legally blind in my left eye. Retinal surgery may correct it, but I'm very sheepish about having it done.

I have enough depth perception to keep me from walking into walls, and so forth, but have no fine depth perception. It definitely affects my pool aiming. It even causes me to miscue occasionally. I'm gradually learning to adjust on the pool table, but it's taken away a little chunk of my ability.

But in terms of innate ability, some are obviously blessed with it. They naturally know where to hit an OB. It's similar to music. I've known several musicians with "perfect pitch". If you play them a note, they know exactly which it is. If you ask them to hum an F-sharp, they can immediately do it. How is it possible? It's simply a sensorimotor ability that is present in 1 out of 10,000 people. That hyper ability is probably similar in number to those who innately know exactly where and how to send a CB to an OB.

So the rest of us just stumble along and try to improve with the abilities that we have..

~Doc
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:18 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Nels Feigen only has one eye. That is why you see his cue is not even close to being under his chin, but is way off to one side.

But when you are 'continuing' to undercut to the left and 'continuing' to over cut to the right, you then need to not except what your brain is telling you, and override it, correct it, and shoot the shot 'not' where you think you can make it, but shoot it on the corrected line of sight. Keep doing this until it becomes natural. Seems awkward I know.

I have this problem and have two good eyes (with glasses). I have found myself generally overcutting certain shots, and I say to myself; " but darn it must go in, but darn I keep missing it the same way, I must be wrong". Well I had to come to grips with myself and realize my brain is telling me incorrectly, and I had to correct it. Whitey
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Old 05-09-2019, 12:44 PM
vapros vapros is offline
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Whitey, I am beginning to wonder if the best shooters are seeing a contact spot at all. You indicated that you have been a shooter in the past - so what did you see when you were down on a shot? Can you recall? A ghost ball, maybe, or the triangle you mentioned?

At my age, I don't think I can start trying to develop a feel or an instinct for the shot. It will have to be the contact spot, and it is much easier to see when standing, because of the third dimension - depth. One of the best shooters I play with is a stand-up shooter. It always looks to me like an awkward way to do it. I think he sees the shot better, but he is a long way from his stick.

Thanks to everyone who is responding here.
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:09 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vapros View Post
Whitey, I am beginning to wonder if the best shooters are seeing a contact spot at all. You indicated that you have been a shooter in the past - so what did you see when you were down on a shot? Can you recall? A ghost ball, maybe, or the triangle you mentioned?

At my age, I don't think I can start trying to develop a feel or an instinct for the shot. It will have to be the contact spot, and it is much easier to see when standing, because of the third dimension - depth. One of the best shooters I play with is a stand-up shooter. It always looks to me like an awkward way to do it. I think he sees the shot better, but he is a long way from his stick.

Thanks to everyone who is responding here.
When I played for real, I only seen the contact point. I looked at the lower half of the object ball to pick up the contact point. I have no clue that it might be a gift as Doc is stating, never thought about it or discussed it with anyone. Hank, was wondering when does it happen when you just see the shot on banks. Tough to answer.
I'd often wonder about just seeing the whole ball (not looking for a contact point) and visualizing it going towards and into the hole. I mean I've done it, but only rarely and I do not ever think about trying it when I am down on a shot. But others here may use this method, and I would like to hear from them. Since I only played for less than 4 years, then this might be the progression from seeing the contact point to seeing the whole ball and shoot, for those that are a lifer player. Like Efren, playing so much he just sees the shot, everything processes so quickly that the contact point is done so quickly or is just a thing of the past. Just see the ball and shoot.

But you definitely just see the shot (contact point) and shoot. One day in practice I noticed I was seeing the shots and shooting quicker. So I called up a friend to come over and time me to see how many racks of 9-ball I could play in 30 minutes. This is on a 5 x 10 with drop pockets. After a game I'd run around the table to gather the balls and re-rack then run to break, well I did 14 racks. So there is no aiming methods, no time for any of that.

I felt I was always deliberate, meaning I just did not instantly flop down on the shot. I am self taught, so I had no aiming methods. It is only now that it is hard for me to pick up the contact point on certain shots, so I either use one or the other method that I depicted to help me out.

I have my chin on the cue, but am now recently finding myself a little higher up now days. Probably due to glasses, the balls are clearer and more round when using a more upright stance. But I can not shoot with an upright stance. My toughest shots are straight in, hard to find the contact point with glasses for me, nothing looks right!

I know it is frustrating, and I get darn mad when I look at the ob and see nothing. Hope some of this will help, I can not imagine just how it is to shoot a ball when your depth perception and vision in one eye are not there! Good luck! Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 05-09-2019 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 05-09-2019, 02:12 PM
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jrhendy jrhendy is offline
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I grew up playing 3 red ball snooker on tight 5 x 10ís. By the time I was 16 I pretty much hit the pocket with everything I shot at. At around 20, I started playing some three cushion Billiards and picked it up fairly fast. The older players were happy to take in a younger player and started to try and teach me systems. This was when I realized not everyone had the natural ability to see where to strike the ball and where to hit to achieve the desired results.

As an older player it is pretty much day to day and I feel that some adjustments need to be made. I have always got down low on the cue ball. Not so much now. I have a tendency to creep up on the cue ball as I run balls and often get out of sync and miss balls. With some help from the house pro who has observed what I do, I still get down low, but step back and raise up a bit. This usually happens when I am trying to draw the cue ball. When I donít remember this, I often miss hitting the ball where I want to and missing the shot.

I also have started using a closed bridge more to keep me from jerking my stroke on the shot. Especially on power shots. As an old snooker player, I have mostly used an open bridge most of my pool playing days. Again, not so much anymore, and it seems to be working for me.
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Old 05-09-2019, 05:30 PM
Gettherack Gettherack is offline
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Thereís no aiming in pool you either see the line or you dont
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