The Role of Long Sessions in Skill Development

kollegedave

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Jul 1, 2004
Messages
169
From
St. Louis, MO
Some guy made a recent post on AZ asking about players that reached a “pro” level in their playing ability after picking pool up “late” in life—like maybe late teens. Jay Helfert responded to the guy and he brought up a topic that I have been thinking about lately—“long sessions”. He defined “long session” as 8 hours or more.

In the not too distant past, I had 15 hour session with a better player, and as crazy as it sounds, I think that one session alone improved my game a smidge. :confused: It is hard for me to articulate how, but I believe it did.

I am interested in hearing the thoughts of people on this board about how or if long sessions accelerate improvement? Basically, I have a tendency to think a 14-hour session offers a greater benefit to skill development than two seven-hour sessions.

Thoughts, disagreements?

kollegedave
 

straightback

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Feb 16, 2014
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owensboro, ky
Some guy made a recent post on AZ asking about players that reached a “pro” level in their playing ability after picking pool up “late” in life—like maybe late teens. Jay Helfert responded to the guy and he brought up a topic that I have been thinking about lately—“long sessions”. He defined “long session” as 8 hours or more.

In the not too distant past, I had 15 hour session with a better player, and as crazy as it sounds, I think that one session alone improved my game a smidge. :confused: It is hard for me to articulate how, but I believe it did.

I am interested in hearing the thoughts of people on this board about how or if long sessions accelerate improvement? Basically, I have a tendency to think a 14-hour session offers a greater benefit to skill development than two seven-hour sessions.

Thoughts, disagreements?

kollegedave

My thoughts: you are not going to encounter enough of the same shots to really hone a skill. Likewise, match play does not allow for tinkering of the stroke or mechanics.

However, it does allow you to work on your mental game, to respond to pressure and to understand how and what to think while you are matching up. It is this part that is tough to teach and can only be learned.
 

jrhendy

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May 24, 2004
Messages
5,717
From
Placerville, CA
Some guy made a recent post on AZ asking about players that reached a “pro” level in their playing ability after picking pool up “late” in life—like maybe late teens. Jay Helfert responded to the guy and he brought up a topic that I have been thinking about lately—“long sessions”. He defined “long session” as 8 hours or more.

In the not too distant past, I had 15 hour session with a better player, and as crazy as it sounds, I think that one session alone improved my game a smidge. :confused: It is hard for me to articulate how, but I believe it did.

I am interested in hearing the thoughts of people on this board about how or if long sessions accelerate improvement? Basically, I have a tendency to think a 14-hour session offers a greater benefit to skill development than two seven-hour sessions.

Thoughts, disagreements?

kollegedave

I thinks a long session helps your mental game more than anything else. For my age, I am a long winded player, and if you are going to win, either gambling or in a tournament, you have to perform as well or better at the end as you do early on.
 

beatle

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Jun 21, 2009
Messages
3,572
if you are even playing that long it means his game is getting worse and yours is not or you are stealing and dont want it to be over as he is emptying out to you.

if your game is deteriorating then you should quit if you like to have money.

no one plays better or the same 14 hours later, so it is all about how well your game stands up to his.
 

Jeff sparks

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Apr 2, 2015
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Houston, Texas
Playing a better player for more than you can afford to lose is the fastest way to learn the game. It makes you concentrate and keeps you focused. When you finally beat the guy, then you know you've improved, go find a better player and start all over. You'll find that playing tough competition will toughen you up mentally and prepare you for the long battles you will encounter along the way to becoming a much better player.

Of course you're going to get broke some times, but that builds character and strengthens your resolve.

Happy Hunting:)
 

LSJohn

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Aug 15, 2013
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From
monett missouri
Of course you're going to get broke some times, but that builds character and strengthens your resolve.

Happy Hunting:)

If you're interested in building your character and strengthening your resolve.... I've got some big matches coming up at the Derby and I could use about a $40,000 loan (just until my hunchback brother straightens up.) Or, you could stake me.

Talk about strengthening your resolve.

:D
 

keoneyo

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Mar 31, 2014
Messages
2,883
I just thought Id add to this although this does not address the question of a Long Session.
I just came back from a seminar for parents who have children in Grade School. It was a Math seminar and what kids can expect to face in the coming years and how parents can help and develop their interest in Math.
A remark that one of the leaders said I found interesting.
That a study was done by scientists and they conclude that it takes about 10,000 hours of study and application to become good at anything.
So in terms of pool. If you practiced or played for 3 hours a day everyday we can say it would take you almost 10 years to become skilled.
Now if you want to add a particular game skill like one pocket for instance that would add several thousand more hours of work.

Now people been wondering why Filipinos have been so successful and I believe that is due to an early start in life. Parica and Efren both started when they were children. So we can say by their mid 20's they have already spent over 10,000 hours of play and practice. I don't think it happens to be with their height.(although I think being short would be to their disadvantage) or their diet, or their culture. Although pool is a respected sport and gambling is a favored pastime.

I am not an educator nor scientist I am just a parent. Who can only advise my child to keep working at it. Never give up. And find some joy in it. And after time you will become skilled.
 

beatle

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Jun 21, 2009
Messages
3,572
ive heard the 10,000 hours thing and it seems valid except for those with top hand eye coordination.

a friend is a great soccer player and he took up golf and in one and a half years he is shooting around par. really.

i remember when cole dickson first took up golf. in two years he was shooting in the low 70,s on days he could control his temper.
 

straightback

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Feb 16, 2014
Messages
1,851
From
owensboro, ky
I just thought Id add to this although this does not address the question of a Long Session.
I just came back from a seminar for parents who have children in Grade School. It was a Math seminar and what kids can expect to face in the coming years and how parents can help and develop their interest in Math.
A remark that one of the leaders said I found interesting.
That a study was done by scientists and they conclude that it takes about 10,000 hours of study and application to become good at anything.
So in terms of pool. If you practiced or played for 3 hours a day everyday we can say it would take you almost 10 years to become skilled.
Now if you want to add a particular game skill like one pocket for instance that would add several thousand more hours of work.

Now people been wondering why Filipinos have been so successful and I believe that is due to an early start in life. Parica and Efren both started when they were children. So we can say by their mid 20's they have already spent over 10,000 hours of play and practice. I don't think it happens to be with their height.(although I think being short would be to their disadvantage) or their diet, or their culture. Although pool is a respected sport and gambling is a favored pastime.

I am not an educator nor scientist I am just a parent. Who can only advise my child to keep working at it. Never give up. And find some joy in it. And after time you will become skilled.

Holding all other variables constant, I say shorter people are better than tall people. Have there been any US or World champions that were over six foot? Johnny is close but not quite there. Frost is 6'4".
 

LSJohn

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Aug 15, 2013
Messages
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monett missouri
I thought the 10,000 hours rule had been debunked. Check the credentials and motivations of the education folks who spin out arcane "facts" for consumption by the ignorant & unwashed (that means the parents, mostly). What you'll find much more often than not is a group of mutually reinforcing folks who are trapped in air-tight intellectual boxes and who are motivated mainly by advancing their careers or extracting money from you or your school district. You and your kid are better off in every way by you trusting your experiences and instincts rather than these shysters.

"Is our children learning?" :D
 

kollegedave

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Joined
Jul 1, 2004
Messages
169
From
St. Louis, MO
I just thought Id add to this although this does not address the question of a Long Session.
I just came back from a seminar for parents who have children in Grade School. It was a Math seminar and what kids can expect to face in the coming years and how parents can help and develop their interest in Math.
A remark that one of the leaders said I found interesting.
That a study was done by scientists and they conclude that it takes about 10,000 hours of study and application to become good at anything.
So in terms of pool. If you practiced or played for 3 hours a day everyday we can say it would take you almost 10 years to become skilled.
Now if you want to add a particular game skill like one pocket for instance that would add several thousand more hours of work.

Now people been wondering why Filipinos have been so successful and I believe that is due to an early start in life. Parica and Efren both started when they were children. So we can say by their mid 20's they have already spent over 10,000 hours of play and practice. I don't think it happens to be with their height.(although I think being short would be to their disadvantage) or their diet, or their culture. Although pool is a respected sport and gambling is a favored pastime.

I am not an educator nor scientist I am just a parent. Who can only advise my child to keep working at it. Never give up. And find some joy in it. And after time you will become skilled.

I think there is some merit to the 10,000 hour theories. I am 36, and I have been playing a lot of pool since I was 14, so I have a lot of hours on the table and some level of honed, but solidly amateur, skill.

However, the 10,000 theory, at least as posited by Malcom Galdwell, requires 10,000 hours of FOCUSED practice. Simply hitting the balls will not cut it---ever---because it cannot always be focused or intense enough. Of course, here is where the value of action comes in. It is a crucible. It makes the experience intense--or focused.

My question was meant to be about whether there is some additional value where 14 hours of focused practice occurs all in one session, versus where it is experienced through two or three sessions.

You bring up the Philippines, what is more intense than gambling against top talent in small out door poolrooms ,where it is standing room only, noise and gambling is everywhere. Compared to that, western tournaments or action in our countries seem like they would be a cake walk to a player from the Philippines.

kollegedave
 

Island Drive

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florence, colorado
Holding all other variables constant, I say shorter people are better than tall people. Have there been any US or World champions that were over six foot? Johnny is close but not quite there. Frost is 6'4".


Sigel I think was 6'2''....in 9 or ten ball, height is a definite advantage:

I'm 6'6''....in the roll out days of rotation pool (one foot on the floor) it was a big advantage at times, I was very aware of HOW far down table my opponent could reach a shot, and I'd adjust accordingly. It's less of an advantage with one shot, but it still comes into play quite often in all games as I can play shape in much closer than lets say Tommy Kennedy could. I had Kikel make me an extension years ago (89) that I would leave attached to my second shaft. If needed I'd just uncork and switch shafts. Bob Osborn was tall, but I was most likely the tallest of our generation, along with another (name slipped) from the east coast, he recently passed on, gosh I remember his face, and I think he had blonde hair as a young man. I'm sure his name will POP into my brain.....Beaumeister'' just came to me. He was a great man, stand up guy, we always enjoyed one another's company the few times we played and I always didn't like it in my earlier days :). There was also Dave Yeager, from NB, but he kept a family lifestyle during his prime years.
 

LSJohn

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monett missouri
My question was meant to be about whether there is some additional value where 14 hours of focused practice occurs all in one session, versus where it is experienced through two or three sessions.

kollegedave

I see two reasons to think the reverse might be true:

Most people will experience a decrease in focus as the hours pile up;

Some modern research suggests that studying in 20-minute segments yields the highest rates of comprehension and retention.
 

Island Drive

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florence, colorado
I see two reasons to think the reverse might be true:

Most people will experience a decrease in focus as the hours pile up;

Some modern research suggests that studying in 20-minute segments yields the highest rates of comprehension and retention.

To me it's been the opposite, I always played better the longer I played. It's also very important to realize when fatigue sets and adjust the game accordingly. If your playing a guy lets say 10 hours, and you tell em your going to quit in another 4 hours it won't ruin your business, unless the guyz a jerk. Giving it all back because of fatigue is poor game management, in any sport.
 

LSJohn

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monett missouri
To me it's been the opposite, I always played better the longer I played.

There's something to that. It was true for me too when I was younger. :frus

But -- just speculating -- maybe getting in the dead punch zone is more likely in a long session, but learning doesn't improve, or maybe goes the other way.

Does one retain information better or worse while on auto-pilot? I don't know, but I would think worse is at least possible.
 

keoneyo

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Mar 31, 2014
Messages
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I have been around the block a couple of times.

I have been around the block a couple of times.

Don't worry Im not as gullible as you might think. I don't listen to an educators anecdotal reference as the word of god. I mean just because some scientist says our bodies are closely related to a pigs anatomy wont stop me from eating bacon. Nor do I turn the other cheek because a great man told me I should.
But I do think putting in a great amount of time is valid. Not only in the physical sense but in the mental one as well.
 

straightback

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Feb 16, 2014
Messages
1,851
From
owensboro, ky
I see two reasons to think the reverse might be true:

Most people will experience a decrease in focus as the hours pile up;

Some modern research suggests that studying in 20-minute segments yields the highest rates of comprehension and retention.

It is a truth. It is called the primacy and recency effects. You block out study time because you remember best what gets studied first and last in a block. More and shorter blocks equals better retention.
 

straightback

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Messages
1,851
From
owensboro, ky
I think there is some merit to the 10,000 hour theories. I am 36, and I have been playing a lot of pool since I was 14, so I have a lot of hours on the table and some level of honed, but solidly amateur, skill.

However, the 10,000 theory, at least as posited by Malcom Galdwell, requires 10,000 hours of FOCUSED practice. Simply hitting the balls will not cut it---ever---because it cannot always be focused or intense enough. Of course, here is where the value of action comes in. It is a crucible. It makes the experience intense--or focused.

My question was meant to be about whether there is some additional value where 14 hours of focused practice occurs all in one session, versus where it is experienced through two or three sessions.

You bring up the Philippines, what is more intense than gambling against top talent in small out door poolrooms ,where it is standing room only, noise and gambling is everywhere. Compared to that, western tournaments or action in our countries seem like they would be a cake walk to a player from the Philippines.

kollegedave

There is no such thing as 14 hours of focused practice.
 

crazysnake

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Sep 11, 2009
Messages
21
Long sessions, unstructured, without focusing on a specific skill, would do more harm than good to your game.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
 

androd

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Dec 10, 2008
Messages
7,718
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New Braunfels tx.
The focus of concentration in my practice is maybe 7/10 minutes, after that I'm just hitting balls around, usually many rails.

I've probably played more long sessions than anyone here, with the possible exception of SJD. many 30/40 hour sessions, one 70 plus.

The only thing I learned was to toughen up, and keep borrowing money.
When you're exhausted your opponent is usually as tired as you.
 
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