your thoughts

lll

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a poster on azb posted this and I asked him this question via a pm
he told me its ok to share our exchange
your thoughts appreciated
...
him
If there were 5 big one pocket events a year, like the DCC, then I think all the pros would play it. You'd see all the top 9 ball player dominate it after a few tournaments.
......
...........
me
how could 9 ballers dominate a 1p tourney??
thanks for your responce
larry
him
Of the best 9/10 ball players in the world, only a small handful of them put any significant time into one pocket. If there was incentive for them to do so (like 5 large one pocket tournaments per year), their superior ball striking skills would put them above all of the one pocket specialists (that get killed in 9 ball, like Frost level).

We saw this with every top rotation player that ever took up one pocket seriously before. Within a very short time (1 year) they all became unbeatable. Efren. Alex. Shane. Dennis. Even Busty is at the upper eschelon.

Good shooting
...
...

he sent another comment when I asked him of it was ok to post this
ok go for it

Here is another point to consider: players like Frost (and me) who took up one pocket as bangers, and developed into top players (not me, ha ha), learned both the one pocket shots and the strategies as they were coming up.

9 ball world beaters, like Dennis, Alex, Shane, Efren, etc, that never played one pocket until they were already world beaters, only have to learn the strategy. They can make any shot under the sun already, and make the CB do anything they want as well. I think their learning curve would be way way faster for the strategy part of the game than a player who came up playing one hole.
,,,,,,
what do you guys think
 

androd

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New Braunfels tx.
a poster on azb posted this and I asked him this question via a pm
he told me its ok to share our exchange
your thoughts appreciated
...
him
If there were 5 big one pocket events a year, like the DCC, then I think all the pros would play it. You'd see all the top 9 ball player dominate it after a few tournaments.
......
...........
me
how could 9 ballers dominate a 1p tourney??
thanks for your responce
larry
him
Of the best 9/10 ball players in the world, only a small handful of them put any significant time into one pocket. If there was incentive for them to do so (like 5 large one pocket tournaments per year), their superior ball striking skills would put them above all of the one pocket specialists (that get killed in 9 ball, like Frost level).

We saw this with every top rotation player that ever took up one pocket seriously before. Within a very short time (1 year) they all became unbeatable. Efren. Alex. Shane. Dennis. Even Busty is at the upper eschelon.

Good shooting
...
...

he sent another comment when I asked him of it was ok to post this
ok go for it

Here is another point to consider: players like Frost (and me) who took up one pocket as bangers, and developed into top players (not me, ha ha), learned both the one pocket shots and the strategies as they were coming up.

9 ball world beaters, like Dennis, Alex, Shane, Efren, etc, that never played one pocket until they were already world beaters, only have to learn the strategy. They can make any shot under the sun already, and make the CB do anything they want as well. I think their learning curve would be way way faster for the strategy part of the game than a player who came up playing one hole.
,,,,,,
what do you guys think

Short races maybe, it'll take a little longer to get seasoned.
 

Tom Wirth

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I've been saying this for years. Strategy is easier to learn than shot making skills. The guy who can run out will eventually beat the guy who can't. Move all you like, you still have to pocket enough balls to win. On the pro level you just aren't going to stop a great shooter from finding a shot. Chohan vs. Orcollo as one example. Both of these guys rely on their shot making skills. They move too but they both are constantly looking to score. They both are capable of finding something where others find nothing. Watch out when they do. The next thing you know, you're racking 'em up and another game down. Bottom line; The guy who knows nothing about One Pocket strategy but pocket balls like a Cole Dickson is a dangerous opponent.

And what of the mover? Those guys are constantly looking to force blatant errors from their opponents. They want no brainer risk free shots. They get them too, but those who frequently run out games from a single error are rare and usually have great cueing skills too. Find one of those guys and you've got something. Efren Reyes in his younger days. Hello!

Tom
 

jtompilot

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I've been saying this for years. Strategy is easier to learn than shot making skills. The guy who can run out will eventually beat the guy who can't. Move all you like, you still have to pocket enough balls to win. On the pro level you just aren't going to stop a great shooter from finding a shot. Chohan vs. Orcollo as one example. Both of these guys rely on their shot making skills. They move too but they both are constantly looking to score. They both are capable of finding something where others find nothing. Watch out when they do. The next thing you know, you're racking 'em up and another game down. Bottom line; The guy who knows nothing about One Pocket strategy but pocket balls like a Cole Dickson is a dangerous opponent.

And what of the mover? Those guys are constantly looking to force blatant errors from their opponents. They want no brainer risk free shots. They get them too, but those who frequently run out games from a single error are rare and usually have great cueing skills too. Find one of those guys and you've got something. Efren Reyes in his younger days. Hello!

Tom

That's interesting, no one considers Chohan a top rotation player yet he beat one of the best rotation players in the world race to 40. I believe that was a minor fluke, and my money is on Dennis this next go around. Tony also gave SVB a one pocket lesson in California(twice).

Overall, I believe with some 1P experience the top rotation players have a slight edge over almost all one pocket specialist. But the best player doesn't always win
 

keoneyo

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I've been saying this for years. Strategy is easier to learn than shot making skills. The guy who can run out will eventually beat the guy who can't. Move all you like, you still have to pocket enough balls to win. On the pro level you just aren't going to stop a great shooter from finding a shot. Chohan vs. Orcollo as one example. Both of these guys rely on their shot making skills. They move too but they both are constantly looking to score. They both are capable of finding something where others find nothing. Watch out when they do. The next thing you know, you're racking 'em up and another game down. Bottom line; The guy who knows nothing about One Pocket strategy but pocket balls like a Cole Dickson is a dangerous opponent.

And what of the mover? Those guys are constantly looking to force blatant errors from their opponents. They want no brainer risk free shots. They get them too, but those who frequently run out games from a single error are rare and usually have great cueing skills too. Find one of those guys and you've got something. Efren Reyes in his younger days. Hello!

Tom

I agree with your basic premise. However, shot making skills dissipate over time. The eyes go, the legs, the back, all contribute to accuracy loss but Strategy never leaves you. And perhaps improves with age.
 

beatle

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of course when using the best players in the world. they turn one pocket into a run out game of mostly shooting skills.

but the rest of the world cant run out from no open balls. with them the game becomes a game of who is smartest wins.

comparing to the worlds best at anything is usually ridiculous.


p.s. and why do people idolize those that have innate athletic skills, but pass on those with great minds.
 

El Chapo

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Guys that shoot at balls, and make them, win at top levels. Of course knowledge doesn't hurt, but it is more of just a cherry on top in my opinion. IF you watch what a player like efren really did, it was mostly about execution in my opinion. Of course he chose very intelligent shots quite often, but to me it was all based in the execution.
 

El Chapo

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of course when using the best players in the world. they turn one pocket into a run out game of mostly shooting skills.

but the rest of the world cant run out from no open balls. with them the game becomes a game of who is smartest wins.

comparing to the worlds best at anything is usually ridiculous.


p.s. and why do people idolize those that have innate athletic skills, but pass on those with great minds.

HAha, I have that thought all the time. Like, this guy can hit a baseball really well, so he makes 20 million a year. It is kinda random isn't it? Like what if baseball didn't exist, or existed in a way that didn't lend to this guy's talents. Then he'd be a nobody? It's so weird... people just so happen to have these skills that just so happen to be important in the society we developed.
 

Wayne

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Of the best 9/10 ball players in the world, only a small handful of them put any significant time into one pocket. If there was incentive for them to do so (like 5 large one pocket tournaments per year), their superior ball striking skills would put them above all of the one pocket specialists (that get killed in 9 ball, like Frost level).

We saw this with every top rotation player that ever took up one pocket seriously before. Within a very short time (1 year) they all became unbeatable. Efren. Alex. Shane. Dennis. Even Busty is at the upper echelon.


Efren is the only one who became unbeatable after a very short time. Alex hit the top level of 1 pocket players a few years back after many years (more than 10) of playing one pocket competitively. Shane is still not unbeatable after quite a few years of playing (when he is in dead stroke at times he is great). Dennis just rose to the top of the pack after playing one pocket for over 10 years. Busty is top notch but has been playing forever and never reached the unbeatable stage.

How quickly people forget:
Just a few years ago Scott Frost was considered the best in the world (1 pocket specialist). He beat Efren a number of times when Efren was still near the top of his game.
Tony Chohan is not nearly the rotation player that he is 1 pocket player and he is a one pocket specialist. Right now maybe the best one pocket specialist in the world.
Shannon Daulton was one of the best for many, many years and is a one pocket specialist. Same with Ronnie Allen.
Jeremy Jones is a one pocket specialist and just won the last major 1 pocket tournament against all of the so called unbeatable rotation players.
 

Tom Wirth

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of course when using the best players in the world. they turn one pocket into a run out game of mostly shooting skills.

but the rest of the world cant run out from no open balls. with them the game becomes a game of who is smartest wins.

comparing to the worlds best at anything is usually ridiculous.

Beatle, I don't think it is about making comparisons,it is more about aspiring to the highest level of play anyone's talent and hard work will allow. I see it as all relative to the shooting and control skills of each player. A player with stronger execution skills will eventually beat those players who lack those same skills.

p.s. and why do people idolize those that have innate athletic skills, but pass on those with great minds.

The answer to that question is obvious. There are countless great thinkers out there who lack the ability or drive to do anything with those thoughts. It will always be the doers in the world who get noticed, and for good reason. They get 'er done.

Guys that shoot at balls, and make them, win at top levels. Of course knowledge doesn't hurt, but it is more of just a cherry on top in my opinion. IF you watch what a player like efren really did, it was mostly about execution in my opinion. Of course he chose very intelligent shots quite often, but to me it was all based in the execution.

El Chapo, I agree of course. Knowledge alone means nothing. Couple knowledge with execution and now you have something. On a whole, the serious players today have execution skill which allows them far more flexibility in their decision making. Most of these same players are not stupid. In the course of every match they play they are learning more about risk-reward. They see what works for their opponent and constantly incorporates that new found thinking into their own game.

Efren is the only one who became unbeatable after a very short time. Alex hit the top level of 1 pocket players a few years back after many years (more than 10) of playing one pocket competitively. Shane is still not unbeatable after quite a few years of playing (when he is in dead stroke at times he is great). Dennis just rose to the top of the pack after playing one pocket for over 10 years. Busty is top notch but has been playing forever and never reached the unbeatable stage.

How quickly people forget:
Just a few years ago Scott Frost was considered the best in the world (1 pocket specialist). He beat Efren a number of times when Efren was still near the top of his game.
Tony Chohan is not nearly the rotation player that he is 1 pocket player and he is a one pocket specialist. Right now maybe the best one pocket specialist in the world.

Tony has a several wonderful skills to back up his game. Not the least of which is heart and self belief. That is in itself a powerful weapon. One other attribute Tony possesses is his ability to find shots most players don't see and then executes those shots with consistency.

Shannon Daulton was one of the best for many, many years and is a one pocket specialist.

Shannon is a great ball striker and one of the best bankers the world has ever seen. Again, great execution skills coupled with strong thinking. The best minds in the world must still rely on themselves or someone else to apply that thinking to action.

Same with Ronnie Allen.
Jeremy Jones is a one pocket specialist and just won the last major 1 pocket tournament against all of the so called unbeatable rotation players.

Neither of these players lacked execution skills. They could run out at the drop of a hat. Ronnie had a very aggressive approach to the game. He moved more balls towards his hole than anyone I can remember. When these players got the shot they wanted they made their opponents pay. Whatever style a player may have it will always come down to execution skills. That is the key.

Just my strong opinion guys. I try to back it up with reason but don't beat me up over it if you have a contrary view.

Tom
 
Last edited:

NH Steve

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I think Derby City One Pocket is a great example of a huge sample of different types of players that rise to the top of the One Pocket (and Banks). You have three main groups, to one degree or another:

1. One Pocket or Banks specialists that would never be expected to cash in a major 9-ball event

2. Solid all around players that have experience winning a variety of different discipline tournaments

3. Top shooters in the world, but limited One Pocket and Banks experience

Every year there are some of the third group at or near the top (Mike Dechaine a couple years ago, and Neils Feijen last year for example). The first group always fills a good number of the cash spots, but not so often snaps off the top spot. The 2nd group tends to always be competing for the title. Of course these three groups blend, so it is not cut and dried.

Bottom line imo, you guys are all right :D:D
 

cincy_kid

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Efren is the only one who became unbeatable after a very short time. Alex hit the top level of 1 pocket players a few years back after many years (more than 10) of playing one pocket competitively. Shane is still not unbeatable after quite a few years of playing (when he is in dead stroke at times he is great). Dennis just rose to the top of the pack after playing one pocket for over 10 years. Busty is top notch but has been playing forever and never reached the unbeatable stage.

How quickly people forget:
Just a few years ago Scott Frost was considered the best in the world (1 pocket specialist). He beat Efren a number of times when Efren was still near the top of his game.
Tony Chohan is not nearly the rotation player that he is 1 pocket player and he is a one pocket specialist. Right now maybe the best one pocket specialist in the world.
Shannon Daulton was one of the best for many, many years and is a one pocket specialist. Same with Ronnie Allen.
Jeremy Jones is a one pocket specialist and just won the last major 1 pocket tournament against all of the so called unbeatable rotation players.


I lean more towards Wayne's thought process on this one...

At least I hope it is right because IMO, I would rather see the top players have vast knowledge & 1p experience than those who excel at pure ball striking and execution.
 

mr3cushion

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I've been saying this for years. Strategy is easier to learn than shot making skills. The guy who can run out will eventually beat the guy who can't. Move all you like, you still have to pocket enough balls to win. On the pro level you just aren't going to stop a great shooter from finding a shot. Chohan vs. Orcollo as one example. Both of these guys rely on their shot making skills. They move too but they both are constantly looking to score. They both are capable of finding something where others find nothing. Watch out when they do. The next thing you know, you're racking 'em up and another game down. Bottom line; The guy who knows nothing about One Pocket strategy but pocket balls like a Cole Dickson is a dangerous opponent.

And what of the mover? Those guys are constantly looking to force blatant errors from their opponents. They want no brainer risk free shots. They get them too, but those who frequently run out games from a single error are rare and usually have great cueing skills too. Find one of those guys and you've got something. Efren Reyes in his younger days. Hello!

Tom

Artie was that GUY! Only in SPADES!
 

baby huey

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Some of the greatest One Pocket players did not possess great or even good ball pocketing skills yet they were at the top of the game for many years. Those include Bugs Rucker and Artie Bodendorfer ( apologize if spelling is incorrect) and yet they dominated. Bugs was a superior banker and Artie never gave up a shot at your hole. So I think you can play top notch One Pocket if you possess at least one of the key three elements to playing effective One Pocket. Those elements are: Superior moving skills, superior banking skills and superior ball pocketing skills. Of the three I think being able to bank the ball might be the most important. No matter how well you play, you are going to have to give up bank shots playing One Pocket. It just can't be helped. Give me a top One Pocket banker and you'll see a guy who will be difficult to beat.
 

Tom Wirth

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I lean more towards Wayne's thought process on this one...

At least I hope it is right because IMO, I would rather see the top players have vast knowledge & 1p experience than those who excel at pure ball striking and execution.

Yes, I agree Chris. Still. wouldn't you agree that a player who possess great ball striking skills can, with a willingness to learn the One Pocket ropes will excel beyond what the pure mover can accomplish should that player not have the shot making skills? Which is harder to master; the moves or the execution skills?

Some of the greatest One Pocket players did not possess great or even good ball pocketing skills yet they were at the top of the game for many years. Those include Bugs Rucker and Artie Bodendorfer ( apologize if spelling is incorrect) and yet they dominated. Bugs was a superior banker and Artie never gave up a shot at your hole. So I think you can play top notch One Pocket if you possess at least one of the key three elements to playing effective One Pocket. Those elements are: Superior moving skills, superior banking skills and superior ball pocketing skills. Of the three I think being able to bank the ball might be the most important. No matter how well you play, you are going to have to give up bank shots playing One Pocket. It just can't be helped. Give me a top One Pocket banker and you'll see a guy who will be difficult to beat.

Jerry, this is a big one and in my opinion it falls into the category of ball striking skills. Eddie Taylor was tough to beat not because of his moving skills but because no one could stop him from finding a bank he was favorite to make. Again, Ball striking.

Sure, the ultimate is to possess both moving skills and ball striking skills but if I were starting out to become a One Pocket player I would first want to have ball striking skills. This way I will without a doubt have many more options to choose from.

Obviously I have strong opinions on this topic. :)

Tom
 

Dennis "Whitey" Young

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A perfect example would be the Dennis Orcollo vs. Scott Frost challenge match. The first day Scott allowed Dennis to play a up table match. We probably all agree this favors the shooter. In watching this I am going to myself; "why is Scott not playing the stack game and utilizing his One Pocket skills". The next day he did and made a come back, and then you could see the difference in One Pocket skill levels. But in making a come back when that far down then everything has to go right, and it just did not quite!

In watching Dalton vs. Efren now that is pure One Pocket and their moves are actually pretty predictable, but in watching lesser skilled One Pocket player, such as a pure 9-ball player, you kinda go what the heck, and their moves are not always that predictable.

The Philippine's player I hear play a lot of Rotation and this gives them a background for the many skill sets required to play a decent game of One Pocket, which should allow them to advance quicker than just a pure 9-ball or 10-ball player would in becoming a respected One Pocket player. So for this reason I do not put them in a category of just a 9-ball or 10-ball player. Whitey
 

poolisboring

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Some of the greatest One Pocket players did not possess great or even good ball pocketing skills yet they were at the top of the game for many years. Those include Bugs Rucker and Artie Bodendorfer ( apologize if spelling is incorrect) and yet they dominated. Bugs was a superior banker and Artie never gave up a shot at your hole. So I think you can play top notch One Pocket if you possess at least one of the key three elements to playing effective One Pocket. Those elements are: Superior moving skills, superior banking skills and superior ball pocketing skills. Of the three I think being able to bank the ball might be the most important. No matter how well you play, you are going to have to give up bank shots playing One Pocket. It just can't be helped. Give me a top One Pocket banker and you'll see a guy who will be difficult to beat.
agreed--if u cant bank well, u will lose ALOT of money playing op, no doubt about it........
 

cincy_kid

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Yes, I agree Chris. Still. wouldn't you agree that a player who possess great ball striking skills can, with a willingness to learn the One Pocket ropes will excel beyond what the pure mover can accomplish should that player not have the shot making skills? Which is harder to master; the moves or the execution skills?

I suppose so as long as the superior ball-striker gets up to the same level on knowledge/moves...otherwise, I am hoping the more knowledgeable player will prevail until that happens.

But sure, if they have equal knowledge and one executes much better, he is going to win most of the time.

PS - Tom I am fighting for us non ball makers/runners hehe :D
 

ChicagoFats

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I think when you talk about "top" and really evaluate the strength in Efren's game that set him apart....
You have to appreciate his 3 cushion skills.
Sometimes it was not obvious, but for those that really watch his matches.... there are many examples of kicks that he executed with great accuracy. Also, some billiards, especially multi-ball ones, where you know he had to anticipate the touches...
He also used draw drag and extreme reverse english more than other players.

So I would put 3 cushion up there as a discipline that allows for shots that others truly don't see.
 
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