Corey Deuel's Smash 1P Break

Patrick Johnson

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Today I watched the AccuStats tape of the 1P match between Deuel and Daulton at the 2000 1P World Championship - you know, the one where Corey uses a smash break, puts Shannon off his game and wins 4-3. I had heard about it but never seen it, and wondered if I'd think that Corey was doing something creative or just trying to shark Shannon.

As I watched (and laughed) I began to realize something: Corey was using a second-ball 8-ball break, and it was doing what I have always noticed - the balls were ending up on the break side and the cue ball was ending up on the other side. Then I thought "this may not be such a bad idea for a great shooter like Corey against better 1P movers".

Shannon was flummoxed by it and that helped Corey win the match, but I was wondering if I was right about Corey's strategy. Then he interviewed with Grady after the match and confirmed my suspicions - he said he knew he'd be outmoved by the more experienced 1P players he was up against (like Shannon) and wanted to get them into a shooting match instead. He also said he got the idea while playing 8-ball and noticing where the balls ended up after the break (great minds...).

What do you all think? Was it a fluke that he won with this strategy, or does it have some merit for a shooter playing against movers? I didn't get to see any other matches from that tournament - how did he do with it against other better 1P players? Has he done it since?

pj
chgo

P.S. It was a really fun match to watch, and I give Corey credit for having the independence and guts to try something nonconventional in a top level tournament. On one shot after Shannon's break Corey was stuck behind the stack without a good move, and if he was a "real" 1P player he probably would have taken a scratch - instead he fired a bank into a 3-ball combo and made two balls! Grady and Ervolino (AccuStats commentators) were incredulous all the way through - I think they had as much fun as I did.
 

One Pocket Ghost

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Pat........I'm trying to think how strongly I can possibly word this....

That break is a joke, worthless, never to be used under any circumstances, and gaining any table-ball layout advantage after employing it, is just blind luck.......If Corey Deuel will use that break, and we play first one to make 3 balls wins, I'll play him even for $200 a game - you have that in writing - I commit to it............And Pat, I love you like a brother, but I have to strongly disagree with you.....Shannon wasn't flummoxed, he was just disgusted because he knew that Corey was just getting lucky to not sell out worse than he did by using that break....and I don't admire Corey for using that break in the DCC tournament.....And as for Corey saying he needed to use that break because he couldn't move good enough, well he moved just as good as Shannon throughout the match - I think it was ridiculous and was just done to be different.


- The Opinionated Ghost
 
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NH Steve

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Another consideration, besides the two already mentioned (avoiding being out-moved & the shark aspect), might very well have been a hustle aspect. Just look at the way the Ghost reacted; Corey may very well have not wanted to look too much like a One Pocket player at that point in his career. Yet he was able to show on a national stage that he was willing to play the game. He certainly achieved that mix, don't you think?

That tournament in Maine was the last major One pocket event for two New England legends: Boston Shorty, who died just a few months later, and Larry Lisciotti, who died a couple years later.
 

Cal

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Corey Deuel's Smash 1P Break

I had the pleasure of being at the tournament and watching the match between Corey & Shannon .Corey smash break turned out for him to be "EXTREMELY LUCKY" in MHO this break is ill advised . This was a great tournament wish there were more of these
 

Patrick Johnson

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Pat........I'm trying to think how strongly I can possibly word this....

That break is a joke, worthless, never to be used under any circumstances, and gaining any table-ball layout advantage after employing it, is just blind luck.......If Corey Deuel will use that break, and we play first one to make 3 balls wins, I'll play him even for $200 a game - you have that in writing - I commit to it............And Pat, I love you like a brother, but I have to strongly disagree with you.....Shannon wasn't flummoxed, he was just disgusted because he knew that Corey was just getting lucky to not sell out worse than he did by using that break....and I don't admire Corey for using that break in the DCC tournament.....And as for Corey saying he needed to use that break because he couldn't move good enough, well he moved just as good as Shannon throughout the match - I think it was ridiculous and was just done to be different.


- The Opinionated Ghost

So you don't like the smash 1P break? :D

I agree it looked like mostly luck that he got away with it in that match (and the fact that Daulton was way off his game for whatever reason), and I'd never use it myself. But I have to admit I enjoyed watching Corey poke the "old timers" in the ribs with it. He was smiling the whole time and sometimes outright laughing. Grady and Ervolino had a good time scratching their heads over it too.

To me Corey's a welcome wild card on the pro pool scene - I look forward to the next thing he'll try.

They laughed at Galileo too (of course they also laughed at Bozo :eek: ).

pj
chgo
 

lfigueroa

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Patrick Johnson said:
So you don't like the smash 1P break? :D

I agree it looked like mostly luck that he got away with it in that match (and the fact that Daulton was way off his game for whatever reason), and I'd never use it myself. But I have to admit I enjoyed watching Corey poke the "old timers" in the ribs with it. He was smiling the whole time and sometimes outright laughing. Grady and Ervolino had a good time scratching their heads over it too.

To me Corey's a welcome wild card on the pro pool scene - I look forward to the next thing he'll try.

They laughed at Galileo too (of course they also laughed at Bozo :eek: ).

pj
chgo


I can't believe they let you in here.

Lou Figueroa
pj in on a1pocket site?!
who'd athunk it...
 

philwelch

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Patrick Johnson said:
Today I watched the AccuStats tape of the 1P match between Deuel and Daulton at the 2000 1P World Championship - you know, the one where Corey uses a smash break, puts Shannon off his game and wins 4-3. I had heard about it but never seen it, and wondered if I'd think that Corey was doing something creative or just trying to shark Shannon.

As I watched (and laughed) I began to realize something: Corey was using a second-ball 8-ball break, and it was doing what I have always noticed - the balls were ending up on the break side and the cue ball was ending up on the other side. Then I thought "this may not be such a bad idea for a great shooter like Corey against better 1P movers".

Shannon was flummoxed by it and that helped Corey win the match, but I was wondering if I was right about Corey's strategy. Then he interviewed with Grady after the match and confirmed my suspicions - he said he knew he'd be outmoved by the more experienced 1P players he was up against (like Shannon) and wanted to get them into a shooting match instead. He also said he got the idea while playing 8-ball and noticing where the balls ended up after the break (great minds...).

What do you all think? Was it a fluke that he won with this strategy, or does it have some merit for a shooter playing against movers? I didn't get to see any other matches from that tournament - how did he do with it against other better 1P players? Has he done it since?

pj
chgo

P.S. It was a really fun match to watch, and I give Corey credit for having the independence and guts to try something nonconventional in a top level tournament. On one shot after Shannon's break Corey was stuck behind the stack without a good move, and if he was a "real" 1P player he probably would have taken a scratch - instead he fired a bank into a 3-ball combo and made two balls! Grady and Ervolino (AccuStats commentators) were incredulous all the way through - I think they had as much fun as I did.
I remember watching that match years ago. As I recall Grady commented that Corey's break would be a surefire way of losing that match. Needless to say, Grady had to eat some crow. I think he got very on almost every break and like the ghost, would not advise putting that break in your arsenal.
 

gulfportdoc

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Patrick Johnson said:
But I have to admit I enjoyed watching Corey poke the "old timers" in the ribs with it. He was smiling the whole time and sometimes outright laughing. Grady and Ervolino had a good time scratching their heads over it too.

To me Corey's a welcome wild card on the pro pool scene - I look forward to the next thing he'll try.
I agree. Corey is one of the few true innovators in pro pool today. He's always working the angles, and he has the true courage of his convictions. I'm inclined to relate to contrarians, so it was a kick to witness all the harumphing and caterwalling in reaction to Corey's smash-em break.

Who else but Corey would have had the guts to start using the super soft break in 9-ball? Especially so in the midst of all those knuckle-dragging, mule-kick breakers?!

Would I use that 1P break? I've never even tried it in practice...:eek:

Doc
 

Roy Steffensen

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Lol, I tried this break 3 times in practise today.

I can see how it is successful, IF you get a lucky roll! "All" balls moved to the breaking side of the table, and I got the cueball to the other. But on 2 of those 3 times I actually made a ball in the other pocket, and I got a good position only one time of the three breaks. I could perhaps get a better outcome with some practise, but I highly doubt that I will ever use that break myself :D
 

SJDinPHX

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I hate it but....

I hate it but....

I must agree with the Ghost. This is NOT a way to ensure winning a !P match against a superior mover. Whatever Corey's reasons were for trying this approach, without divine intervention, Shannon should have won every game on Corey's break.
Patrick, what is a "number cruncher" like you doing on 1P.org.? Did you get tired of all the "aiming system" guy's on AZB showing you no respect ? They are all nice guy's, but I would like to bet real high against all of them, that I can make any given shot using my A.S. ( which is NONE) versus theirs. (especially John B.) And I'm now playing on instinct only. ;)

Anti-A.S. Dick

PS. Doc and Steve, it does take some degree of courage, but it does NOT take brains to attempt to commit suicide.
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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SJDinPHX said:
Patrick, what is a "number cruncher" like you doing on 1P.org.? Did you get tired of all the "aiming system" guy's on AZB showing you no respect ?

Anti-A.S. Dick


Dick........Pat is partly over here because of my urging - he is one of my One Pocket students - and he has been steadily improving....I'd say his game has gone up about 1-1/2 - 2 balls in the last 8 months.
 

SJDinPHX

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Tell me it ain't true.....

Tell me it ain't true.....

One Pocket Ghost said:
Dick........Pat is partly over here because of my urging - he is one of my One Pocket students - and he has been steadily improving....I'd say his game has gone up about 1-1/2 - 2 balls in the last 8 months.

Well Ghost, I'm sure he couldn't find a better 1P instructor. But please, don't tell me you subscribe to "aiming systems". Do you?

Dick,<-------believes "A.S." were invented by Phd's and frustrated engineer's, who CANNOT make a ball in the ocean, and are subscribed to by the people who are in the same boat, (on said ocean) all seeking the "Holy Grail" of pool. But that don't make them bad guy's, I'm still actively searching for the "Fountain of Youth". :eek:
 
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Skin

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SJDinPHX said:
Anti-A.S. Dick

Dang! I wanted Anti-A.S. for my nickname, Dick.

God help us all if Aiming System Armageddon spreads here.


Just-Shoot-the-Damn-Ball Skin
 
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One Pocket Ghost

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SJDinPHX said:
Well Ghost, I'm sure he couldn't find a better 1P instructor. But please, don't tell me you subscribe to "aiming systems". Do you?


Not hardly.....and as a matter of fact, I got flamed for posting against aiming systems a few months before you also did, over at azbilliards..:( ......here's the link - go to post #89 where I posted/agreed with Wybrook >>>

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1342888#post1342888
 

gulfportdoc

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Nerd's ulitimate A.S., and results:

Nerd's ulitimate A.S., and results:

SJDinPHX said:
Dick,<-------believes "A.S." were invented by Phd's and frustrated engineer's, who CANNOT make a ball in the ocean, and are subscribed to by the people who are in the same boat, (on said ocean) all seeking the "Holy Grail" of pool.
Dick, here's the ultimate Nerd's aiming system. The results are underwhelming...:rolleyes: ~Doc

http://www.engadget.com/2008/12/11/digitally-assisted-billiards-makes-everyone-a-pool-shark/
 

iusedtoberich

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One Pocket Ghost said:
Not hardly.....and as a matter of fact, I got flamed for posting against aiming systems a few months before you also did, over at azbilliards..:( ......here's the link - go to post #89 where I posted/agreed with Wybrook >>>

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=1342888#post1342888


Just read your AZ post and one or two after it. I'm a total feel player, including kicks. And I'm just an average player, B range. I was playing this guy that is much better than me in 9 ball, giving me the 6. We get into an argument over kicking systems. I tell him I don't have any systems. I just see the angles the cue ball will take off the rails. Doesn't matter if its single or multi rail kicks. He thinks I'm nuts and I must be getting lucky to hit the ball. So I tell him I'll bet him I can hit more kicks than him, using my no system vs his many systems. He won't bet so we do it for free. We throw 2 balls on the table and then put in a blocking ball, and then say how many rails the kick will be. We throw up 4 different shots before he quits. I make all 4 hits, he makes none. And this guy is much better than me.
 

SJDinPHX

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iusedtoberich said:
Just read your AZ post and one or two after it. I'm a total feel player, including kicks. And I'm just an average player, B range. I was playing this guy that is much better than me in 9 ball, giving me the 6. We get into an argument over kicking systems. I tell him I don't have any systems. I just see the angles the cue ball will take off the rails. Doesn't matter if its single or multi rail kicks. He thinks I'm nuts and I must be getting lucky to hit the ball. So I tell him I'll bet him I can hit more kicks than him, using my no system vs his many systems. He won't bet so we do it for free. We throw 2 balls on the table and then put in a blocking ball, and then say how many rails the kick will be. We throw up 4 different shots before he quits. I make all 4 hits, he makes none. And this guy is much better than me.

IUTBR, you are my new hero. Too bad you couldn't get a wager. But then thats another area the "AS" guys do not do well (gamble that is!) :rolleyes:

Anti A.S. Dick
 

One Pocket Ghost

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iusedtoberich said:
Just read your AZ post and one or two after it. I'm a total feel player, including kicks. And I'm just an average player, B range. I was playing this guy that is much better than me in 9 ball, giving me the 6. We get into an argument over kicking systems. I tell him I don't have any systems. I just see the angles the cue ball will take off the rails. Doesn't matter if its single or multi rail kicks. He thinks I'm nuts and I must be getting lucky to hit the ball. So I tell him I'll bet him I can hit more kicks than him, using my no system vs his many systems. He won't bet so we do it for free. We throw 2 balls on the table and then put in a blocking ball, and then say how many rails the kick will be. We throw up 4 different shots before he quits. I make all 4 hits, he makes none. And this guy is much better than me.



Good job, i.u.t.b.r.
 
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