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  #41  
Old 07-22-2010, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboy Dennis
I did know of Alfredo de Oro before I heard of him also but I was a person who always thought that you should learn the history of the particular endeavor or hobby that you love. I believe that de Oro was the only or the first man to win titles in both pocketless and pocket tables.

Dennis
Right you are C.B.
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  #42  
Old 07-22-2010, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fred bentivegna

More reality: Buddy Hall wanted 10 to 8. Allan Hopkins wanted 8 to 7. Nick Varner wanted lessons. Ronnie couldnt get a backer. Lenny Moore offered to stake Ronnie, but Artie would have had to agree to dumping his backers. Louie Roberts wouldnt even try to make a game. George Brunt got a ball and the break. George Pawalski, a 300 ball runner, a guy who gave Tommy Spencer the 8 ball and stuck him up, got 8 to 5 from Artie and only lasted a few games. Larry Hubbard wouldnt match up. Romberg gave Hubbard a ball and the break and robbed him. Romberg would never even try and match up with Artie. And let us never forget Cornbreads opinion of his speed.



One final reality. Anybody who knows me, knows that for me to stick up for that guy is like sticking forks in my eyeballs. Keep in mind I had to resort to being number two for 20 years. But I must defend the legacy of pool, not just Artie, in Chicago in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and I am going to make sure that people do not forget Artie Bodendorfer, because he reflects who I am and who I was. Peace.

Beard
Fred,
The first paragraph I quoted from you, it's just amazing. I have never known you to lie, ever. So I have to believe what you wrote there. But man alive, that's just so hard to believe if someone ain't never seen it first hand. That is in no way casting doubt on what you wrote, it's just unbelievable. On any given day, the talent level of the really elite players ebbs up or down just a little. Nobody ever plays at 100% of their speed forever on end. According to what is written about Sir Arthur, he has to have been the very best greatest top shelf shooter of all time! Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Allen Hopkins and them other fellas were and still are bonafide super-star legends. Hard to fathom that A.B. was that superior to them. But like you said, guys like me never saw him play. Sill, that's an amazing paragraph you penned.

As for the second paragraph I quoted you saying, I understand 100% where you are coming from with that. I even knew that before I read what you wrote. You have had, have and always will have a great heart for pool and your fellow competitors. Good for you Beard!
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  #43  
Old 07-22-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Ardeno
Fred,
The first paragraph I quoted from you, it's just amazing. I have never known you to lie, ever. So I have to believe what you wrote there. But man alive, that's just so hard to believe if someone ain't never seen it first hand. That is in no way casting doubt on what you wrote, it's just unbelievable. On any given day, the talent level of the really elite players ebbs up or down just a little. Nobody ever plays at 100% of their speed forever on end. According to what is written about Sir Arthur, he has to have been the very best greatest top shelf shooter of all time! Buddy Hall, Nick Varner, Allen Hopkins and them other fellas were and still are bonafide super-star legends. Hard to fathom that A.B. was that superior to them. But like you said, guys like me never saw him play. Sill, that's an amazing paragraph you penned.

As for the second paragraph I quoted you saying, I understand 100% where you are coming from with that. I even knew that before I read what you wrote. You have had, have and always will have a great heart for pool and your fellow competitors. Good for you Beard!

Most of the people I mentioned are still alive. If anybody wants to rev them up to challenge what I said, I'll be here for them.

Beard
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  #44  
Old 07-22-2010, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJDinPHX
Pretty broad statement there Fred...

Let me just say that the if the residents (and pool room regulars).. .of the states of California, (Cochrans, Hard Times) Texas, (Times Square, Cotton Bowl, Le Cue) Oklahoma (Truelove's) Louisiana (Guys and Dolls, Sport Palace)...The entire Northwest, Most of the Midwest, and most of the south,....Had never heard of him UNTIL your erstwhile (and successful) efforts to get him in the 1 Pocket HOF, then well, he was a little short of a "known" player.

If John Henderson, Rodney Stevens, or myself, had never even heard his NAME mentioned, I would have to say "ALL" his peers did not know him from Adam. As I have said before, the best undecover man in pool, your friend Jack Cooney, was a "household name" compared to AB.

I am bad with names, but those other two guys, between them, knew every player on the planet. (well except maybe for one).

Sand Duck <---knows getting you to admit he was only a "local" legend,...will be a daunting (if not impossible) task...

PS..This may be my only effort at it.
Duck, I must again apologize that I somehow always manage to not fit into your esoteric little universe. But take my word for it, I did exist here on earth for the last 70 years. Honest. I concede that we have to operate from, "if you dont know about it, it dont count," but I am going to make a laborious attempt to expound on my point using my now infamous "beat" list.


Guys I beat that knew Artie in the 70s and 80s


John Abruzzo yes
Robert Agins yes
Ronnie Allen yes
Richie Ambrose yes
Donnie Anderson yes
Mike Bandy yes
xx Barline yes Detroit Rack
Jaffar Basheer yes Patch eye
Iceman Black Iceman yes
Rusty Brandymeyer yes
Tony Brewer yes Tough Tony
James Brown yes Youngblood
George Brunt yes
Billy Burge yes
xxx Cannella yes Mexican champ
Mike Carella yes
Vince Carelli yes Pancho
Jeff Carter yes
Johnny Chapman yes Cannonball
xx Chi Chi yes Mexican
Clyde Childress yes
Fat Chino yes
xx Cletus yes Detroit
Wade Crane yes
Alphonso Daniels yes
Danny Di Liberto yes
Cole Dickson yes
Vernon Eliot yes
Berle Gabbard yes
Chris Gentile yes
Joe Gold yes
Cecil Buddy Hall yes
Bud Harris yes
Marvin Henderson yes
Allen Hopkins yes
Bill Incardona yes
Charlie Jones yes KY
Leon Ledford yes
Eddie Matthews yes Milwaukee
John Mc Cue yes
Keith McCready yes
Danny Medina yes
Howard Meechum yes The Coward
George Michaels yes
Bill Mielke yes
Al Miller yes
Willie Munson yes
Bruce Perri yes
Jimmy Reid yes
Jim Rempe yes
Kenny Remus yes Romberg
Chuey Rivera yes
Louie Roberts yes
Joe Rocha yes
Glen Rogers yes Piggy banks
Bernard Rogoff yes Pots and pans
Don Rose yes
Leonard Rucker yes Bugs
Ike Runnels yes
Denny Searcy yes
Mike Sigel yes
David Sizemore yes
JohnnyboySkinner yes
Joe Solomon yes
Gary Spaeth yes
Joey Spaeth yes
Tommy Spencer yes
Earl Strickland yes
Larry Swartz yes
Cecil Tugwell yes
Nick Varner yes
John Vasquez yes Mexican Johnny
George Walker yes
xx Watson yes Detroit Rack
Dick Weaver yes
Wendell Weir yes
Alton Whitlow yes Baby Face
John Zaksas yes


Guys off my beat list that probably didnt know Artie in 70s and 80s
Paul Baker dont know Iowa Paul
Jay Helfert maybe
Floyd Baxter no
Ray Booth no
Louis Bramlett no Little hand
California Shorty no
Country Calvin no
Hubert Cokes no
Nate Colbert no Black Nate
George Cole no
Tony Coleman no Tony Banks
Billy Corelli no
Sam Crotzer no Crying Sam
Johnny Dollar maybe
Jamie Farrell no
Tony Ferguson no Fargo
Rich Geiler no
Roger Griffis no
Truman Hogue no
Tony Howard no One eye
Jew Town Red no
Cliff Joyner no
Eddie Kelly no
Glen Knowles no Fat Glen
Peter Linhard no Peter rabbit
Larry Lisciotti no
xxx Long Beach no
Jimmy Marino no
Marco Marquez no
Steve Mizerak no
Jose Parica no
Gary Pinkowski no
Dave Piona no
Efren Reyes no
Skippy Riggs no Le Cue
Freddy Sessions no New orleans
Harry Sexton maybe Poochy
Steve Smith no Lizard
Greg Stevens no
Bill Stigall no
Joey Torma no Dallas Joey
Jesse Webb no one eye
Billy Weir no
Al Werline no
Robert Rags Woods no
Dave Yeager no

More that knew him but who were not on my original list
Boston Shorty
Jersey Red
Danny Jones
Jew Paul
John Hager Sr.
Agusatate
Miami
Weanie Beanie
Detroit Whitey
Canadian Pete
Monk Costanza
Little Sergio
Bernie Swartz the Hawk

All that I can think of at the moment. The man was hardly a phantom.

Beard

I was checking my files and I just realized that the list I put up is a very old one and very incomplete. I have another 100 names to add but I aint gonna take the time. This is certainly enough.
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Last edited by fred bentivegna; 07-22-2010 at 03:28 PM.
  #45  
Old 07-22-2010, 03:42 PM
usblues usblues is offline
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Default St Louie

Freddie,when you say Louie Roberts didnt play,do you mean he didnt bother trying or Artie and him couldnt come to an agreement?
  #46  
Old 07-22-2010, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usblues
Freddie,when you say Louie Roberts didnt play,do you mean he didnt bother trying or Artie and him couldnt come to an agreement?
The only thing Artie would play Louie was 8 ball or One pocket. Louie hung in my joint, North Shore Billiards for months and never tried to match up playing Artie onepocket. He played everybody else, including me, but he never played Artie. Artie would match up with anybody playing one pocket.

Beard
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  #47  
Old 07-22-2010, 04:04 PM
usblues usblues is offline
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Default Patience???

Gotcha,just curious,gracious.......

Last edited by usblues; 07-22-2010 at 04:27 PM.
  #48  
Old 07-23-2010, 05:56 AM
philip guagliardo philip guagliardo is offline
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Dennis , Your not a knocker ? It seems like that's what you were doing about the match by sharing your opinion more or less that it would suck !! I guess we all have the right to discredit former top players and i'm sure we could do that in all sports . Your opinion on people you never seen play and how they will be remember is worth about 2 cents in yen . I guess you think Mosconi - Greenleaf - Worst - Bugs won't be remembered and your right they won't be remembered by you , but there will be a lot of players that will read about them in the future just as other sports figures like Snead & Hogan !! Get my point ! Just because you won't that doesn't mean other won't . You like to give your opinion and I like to give mine and its nothing new to me because I also chat on a horse forum where posters have an opinion even though they haven't a clue what their talking about . I'm glad your happy with yourself and have money in the bank and you work even though I didn't need to know all that and i'm more concerned why you think seeing two great players would have been bad . I enjoyed Mosconi & Fats playing each other even though they were over the hill !!! But thats me , and I kind of love watching superstars even when there OLD .

You kind of make me feel bad because my friend Jimmy Mataya introduced me as a racetrack legend in chicago to some guys I probably never will see again at the Cub game the other night !! Oh well I hope they remember me for at least a week !! I have to be blunt !! Your just not a nice fella , but no hard feelings I have met a lot of guys like you that refuse to give credit and find reasons not too . I hate to say all this but , you know I have an opinion too

Phil

You know its possible that others don't live in your world or mine !

Oh by the way why don't you suggest to Steve who puts these players in the one pocket hall of fame so they will be remembered to just stop because its all in vain !! Nobody will remember them according to you !

Last edited by philip guagliardo; 07-23-2010 at 06:03 AM.
  #49  
Old 07-23-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philip guagliardo
Dennis , Your not a knocker ? It seems like that's what you were doing about the match by sharing your opinion more or less that it would suck !! I guess we all have the right to discredit former top players and i'm sure we could do that in all sports . Your opinion on people you never seen play and how they will be remember is worth about 2 cents in yen . I guess you think Mosconi - Greenleaf - Worst - Bugs won't be remembered and your right they won't be remembered by you , but there will be a lot of players that will read about them in the future just as other sports figures like Snead & Hogan !! Get my point ! Just because you won't that doesn't mean other won't . You like to give your opinion and I like to give mine and its nothing new to me because I also chat on a horse forum where posters have an opinion even though they haven't a clue what their talking about . I'm glad your happy with yourself and have money in the bank and you work even though I didn't need to know all that and i'm more concerned why you think seeing two great players would have been bad . I enjoyed Mosconi & Fats playing each other even though they were over the hill !!! But thats me , and I kind of love watching superstars even when there OLD .

You kind of make me feel bad because my friend Jimmy Mataya introduced me as a racetrack legend in chicago to some guys I probably never will see again at the Cub game the other night !! Oh well I hope they remember me for at least a week !! I have to be blunt !! Your just not a nice fella , but no hard feelings I have met a lot of guys like you that refuse to give credit and find reasons not too . I hate to say all this but , you know I have an opinion too

Phil

You know its possible that others don't live in your world or mine !

Oh by the way why don't you suggest to Steve who puts these players in the one pocket hall of fame so they will be remembered to just stop because its all in vain !! Nobody will remember them according to you !
An excelent post, Phil. I myself am always shocked when people give an opinion on a subject or persons or idiology they have never encountered. Certain people on this forum keep refering that Artie never left the Bensinger's and he was a 1 table player and just played suckers and soft action. NOT TRUE, I wittnessed many matches with the players that Freddie has on his LIST. Just because some of the so called top players on this forum never ran into him on the road does not mean he wasn't out doing what he does best, WIN. Phil, your statement about Father Time visits all no eceptions is so true, maybe in Artie and Ronnie's case he's been a little more harsh than for others. But I can tell you for a fact Artie still has the determination to try to play perfect one pocket even with deminished skills.

BTW, I'm just curious about what ever happened to matches that were agreed to with him MANY months ago from CD to play for $10,000.00 and SJD to play for the same amount. You all know his speed now, helpless, one tenth of what it used to be. But He'll still play. Maybe he has to be in a wheel-chair for these guys to step up.

If John Henderson reads this post, Artie says he has the upmost respect for you as a MAN and GAMBLER playing pool. He was hoping you guys could have the rubber match at the DERBY next year.

I really don't like to get in the middle of this s**t, but this relentless denying and doubting Artie's ability to play and WIN is just a shame. I and many others, not only from Chicago have seen with thier own eyes the TOP players Artie not only BEAT but TORTURED playing one pocket. Second-hand information is a very unreliable source for people to base thier opinion of someone, especially in the pool world, That's how players get trapped!

We all like to give credit to someone we know personally than people we don't, it's the nature of the beast, but to desparich a player and to insult the people that REALLY saw him play by not believing what they have said is a shame. The people that did not see Artie play in his prime really missed an opportunity to see a whole other side to a GREAT and DIFFICULT game, like many great sports figures he made it look easy, simple and boring.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
  #50  
Old 07-23-2010, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr3cushion
BTW, I'm just curious about what ever happened to matches that were agreed to with him MANY months ago from CD to play for $10,000.00 and SJD to play for the same amount. You all know his speed now, helpless, one tenth of what it used to be. But He'll still play. Maybe he has to be in a wheel-chair for these guys to step up.


Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
Nice of you to bring that up Bill. I can not speak for Dennis, but If you remember the back and forth going on then,...I had all my ducks in a row at that time. 5K of my own, and the other 5K from members of this forum.

An unfortunate event took place right at that time, and I had to postpone the match, for which naturally I took a lot of crap from AB and others over.

Just bet your ass, I would have played, and also know that I had a good piece of John's action BOTH plays with Artie, and I will have again if they play the rubber match.

I'm sure Artie was a hell of a player in his prime. It just seems strange that, except for a few hardcore Chicago scuffs, VERY FEW OTHERS can attest to it.

In my opinion, there are a couple dozen one hole player's out there, who mixed it up ALL OVER the country, who deserved to be inducted ahead of AB.

I'm not buying Fred's story about why they never played...He is recalling ONE isolated incident to prove his point...RA could have stopped any man on the street, and gotten staked to play ANYONE.

There is NO pool player alive that never heard of Ronnie Allen.That is a legacy HE EARNED, the hard way.
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