Interesting Cueing....

[Miller]

I don't know how to capture a section of a youtube video (Whitey .....you should give a tutorial on how to do that....)

Anyway....fast forward to the about 1:55 minute mark. Bartram v Deuel. Watch Chris stroke/tip motion on this shot....

Would you hit it the same way?

 

[Jimmy B]

If anyofyuse don't know how to copy and paste a YouTube vid at a certain point in the video, it's the easiest thing in the world. Just go there and stop the vid where you want it to begin and then put your cursor anywhere on the video and right click it. A list should show up and you just left click the selection that says 'Copy video UrL at certain time' then go to your post and right click and paste it.. Is this backhand english madness??

 

[Tobermory]

Perfect camera position to see how he used back hand english to employ inside spin to kill the cue ball. The BHE theory is that if you aim at the edge of the object ball with center ball (did I hear someone say CTE?), as Chris does here, and then use BHE to go inside on the stroke and, and (this is the important part), stroke it with the speed necessary for the cue ball swerve caused by deflection to come back to dead center on the CTE aim line at the precise moment it hits the object ball. Hard to explain. Kinda works. Fun to explore how it works at different distances and stroke speeds. YMMV.

 

[beatle]

its all we used way back when as we knew the cueball would squirt away if you used more than a little and finding your exact spot to hit was a guess. still is. unless you are close and have a larger enough margin of error.

 

[lll]

for the scientifically minded out there.....
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Back-Hand English (BHE) and Front-Hand English (FHE) - Billiards and Pool Principles, Techniques, Resources

Answers to frequently-asked questions about Back-Hand English (BHE) and Front-Hand English (FHE) used to compensate for cue ball deflection.

billiards.colostate.edu

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[cincy_kid]

Thanks for the link Miller. Chris bartram sure played good at one point... looks like he still does if this is current. He is on my record list...the person I lost the most money to in one gambling session lol.

It was my first time at the derby, I think it was the first or 2nd dcc ever, I played and I forget who else I played in the tourney but I do remember troy frank knocked me out fairly early so I was ready to gamble.

I had played Chris before and this was before he jumped up to pro status. I forget the game but I think I was getting 87 or something to start with. I lost 10 straight games at $100 a game to blow a dime. I think about halfway thru it went to 97 but it didn't matter I couldn't win.

Hopefully this is a record I will never break.

 

[Scrzbill]

Thanks for the link Miller. Chris bartram sure played good at one point... looks like he still does if this is current. He is on my record list...the person I lost the most money to in one gambling session lol.

It was my first time at the derby, I think it was the first or 2nd dcc ever, I played and I forget who else I played in the tourney but I do remember troy frank knocked me out fairly early so I was ready to gamble.

I had played Chris before and this was before he jumped up to pro status. I forget the game but I think I was getting 87 or something to start with. I lost 10 straight games at $100 a game to blow a dime. I think about halfway thru it went to 97 but it didn't matter I couldn't win.

Hopefully this is a record I will never break.

This likely is the kind of record you can’t beat easily. Bet $2000.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Thanks Miller,
I guess you remembered from when I did the squirt test. That was a very hard thread for me, for the stroke I was using, members kept saying it was backhand, and I kept trying to relate that no it is not. I brought this stroke to the attention of members quite awhile ago with a video of Hoppe. Hoppe uses this stroke, so I coined it; 'The Hoppe Stroke'.
This is how I figure it, and the difference between the two strokes:
Backhand; is where the axis of the cue crosses the path line to the ob. The cue pivots from the bridge hand to the inside reverse english point on the cb. *Then you stroke 'straight' through. ***So you pivot at the bridge hand (move the back hand) prior to the stroke, and then stroke straight through.
Whereas;
The Hoppe Stroke; you start off aiming (stroking) straight at the contact point, but on your final stroke the backhand is moving into your body causes the cue to swipe at the cb, in one continuous motion. *The cue is releasing its force off the cb upon contact, thus not applying much push effect in the opposite direction.
*** Look at Bartram; this is what he is doing.
Summary conclusion;
Backhand; you pivot the back hand from the beginning, and then stroke straight through. Hoppe stroke; you pivot the back hand as you stroke and swipe across the cb.
The difference is back hand does not swipe at the cb, whereas the Hoppe Stroke does.

Thanks so much Miller! This is a perfect example of the 'Hoppe Stroke'.
I watched Hoppe do it, and wondered what the heck, so I started working on it, and soon realized what he was accomplishing. Whitey
-------
I deleted my comment about Dr. Dave's video, because once I viewed the video I realize it is not the video that he once used, which had some errors. Whitey

 

[lll]

whitey if click where the arrow is the pop up screen will say play back settings
when you click that it will have "normal and other speeds to chose from
0,25 is the slowest
i cant a get a pic of that or copy paste it in slo mo

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Thanks Larry,
See how Bartram lines up on the aiming contact point, and then on the final one continuous stroke he then strokes his inside reverse english.

This is far different than lining up the shot while stroking it with inside reverse english by initially crossing the axis, and then stroking straight through.

The swipe can be subtle and hard to pick up, but it is there. What gives it away when it is subtle is the 'continuous stroke'.
Or, it can be more easily picked up, such as in watching Hoppe, whereas he really goes after the swipe.
Whitey

 

[Island Drive]

Never spent the time to comprehend what BH english meant, after watching that spot shot cut I would of never taught that concept/thinking to my students. I taught that understanding, by using the term spin release, then the cue balls natural rolling, plus the player did not have to pivot? move/change his swing arm, thus causing his swing pendulum to be out of their natural/unencumbered swing mechanics with their body weight/stance. When your down your done concept, like Incardone in his lock down stance. From my perspective, this way of shooting with inside spin, not using your normal swing, a player cannot develop as great a feel and consistency of this type of shot. I always taught/know/believe.... just cue inside, and get the feel of the transition point when the cue ball starts rolling Naturally. I know I'm not the best at explaining via the keyboard, but at the table, I find this visually and in the moment Simple to explain and show it's results. Basically this BHE term is a ''horizontal masse' shot'' is all. Depending on play conditions, cue ball and cleanliness of balls, it's a shot that has a feel all it's own with each different table conditon.

 

[jtompilot]

Thanks for the link Miller. Chris bartram sure played good at one point... looks like he still does if this is current. He is on my record list...the person I lost the most money to in one gambling session lol.

It was my first time at the derby, I think it was the first or 2nd dcc ever, I played and I forget who else I played in the tourney but I do remember troy frank knocked me out fairly early so I was ready to gamble.

I had played Chris before and this was before he jumped up to pro status. I forget the game but I think I was getting 87 or something to start with. I lost 10 straight games at $100 a game to blow a dime. I think about halfway thru it went to 97 but it didn't matter I couldn't win.

Hopefully this is a record I will never break.

How much did you play him for? He wouldn’t play me in Columbus about 7 or 8 years ago.

 

[OneRock]

I don't know how to capture a section of a youtube video (Whitey .....you should give a tutorial on how to do that....)

Anyway....fast forward to the about 1:55 minute mark. Bartram v Deuel. Watch Chris stroke/tip motion on this shot....

Would you hit it the same way?

He pivoted.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Thanks Larry,
See how Bartram lines up on the aiming contact point, and then on the final one continuous stroke he then strokes his inside reverse english.

This is far different than lining up the shot while stroking it with inside reverse english by initially crossing the axis, and then stroking straight through.

The swipe can be subtle and hard to pick up, but it is there. What gives it away when it is subtle is the 'continuous stroke'.
Or, it can be more easily picked up, such as in watching Hoppe, whereas he really goes after the swipe.
...

Yeah, I think if he would be using BHE, he'd be lining up his aim to the RIGHT of the CB to put inside spine on the OB. Plus BHE doesn't work well on a long slow shot, as it is here. He's obviously compensating a little for the swerve.

He may be using some type of "swipe", or he may be using some type of personal aiming system for this type of situation. There are all kinds of systems out there. Just ask Hillbilly...

I used to compete with a good shooter who, on every shot, lined up the cue to the top left of the CB. But he always ended up shooting straight center through the CB. I pointed it out to him once, and he said he didn't realize he did that!

 

[Island Drive]

He pivoted.

His cue shaft yes, but he left his stance and body weight unchanged. Now if he set his stance/weight up for the pivot then that would have some consistency, but not at his highest level. Like Doc said, I also remember a great bar table player from the midwest KS area that took his break shot and all his shots with his warm up strokes a tip off center left, then hit thru the middle on the final hit. When the player sets up his stance for his shot, he's also setting up his cueing position to address the cue ball, this develops a consistent feel, and a predictable action/reaction to the shot at hand. Any shot that is not straight in, has this thinking going on addressing the ball to be cut. Your walking up to the cueing position with your swing in perfect pendulum. Anytime you twist a little thru the shot to make it, you body/mind is telling you your not in proper alignment, and almost always a missed shot, or a missed cue ball position.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Doc & Island dr. & members;
If you go to the bank forum pg.2 Harriman and Saez Bank Match, you will then see an example of Saez lining up shots way off and then stroking it different. It is quite remarkable. Not sure if it is do to the way the eyes focus on the shots, or what!

But in looking at Bartram lining up this shot, you'll see he is lining up the cue to right side of the cue ball, as we look at it. I believe this is his aiming technique on this particular shot. He is aiming to overcut the ob.
Now with putting the stroke he is putting on it, it will not push away but it will curve into the ob. His follow through is downward which will even put more curve into the ob.

Bottom line; I believe whatever technique you use and are successful with then that is what you should stay with. If you are not having much consistency, then reevaluate, and put in the work.

I believe Bartram's technique will give you more spin, thus enabling holding up the cb. Whitey

 

[lll]

if you go in slow motion
it looks to me bartram went from left of center to one last practice stroke at center cue ball then pivots to right hand english and follows thru straight
if he was swooping i would have expected the deviation to the right to appear later in his stroke
icbw

 

[OneRock]

if you go in slow motion
it looks to me bartram goed from left of center to one last practice stroke at center cue ball the pivots to right hand english and follows thru straight
if he was swooping i would have expected the deviation to the right to appear later in his stroke
icbw

He was simply compensating for the deflection.

 

[lll]

He was simply compensating for the deflection.

of course
i went back and corrected my spelling mistakes
i need to proof read before i hit sent (insert embarrassed face )

 

[Bob Jewett]

He was simply compensating for the deflection.

Exactly. I call that particular technique "aim and swoop" where the cue stick is moved over during the final stroke. He starts off on his left side of the cue ball, slightly. On the final backstroke, he comes straight back, but then as he comes forward he moves the tip well over to the right side of the ball.

For those who don't know about YouTube single-frame-step controls, use ">" (greater than) and "<" (less than) when the video is paused to move one frame at a time.

Another way to do backhand english is to aim without side, pivot about your bridge hand with the tip stopped at the cue ball, and then pull the stick straight back and go straight forward at that new, offset position. I call that "aim and pivot" because there is no swooping during the actual stroke.