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  #51  
Old 08-20-2019, 03:27 AM
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levartze levartze is offline
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I like the Ghost's option of keeping the pocketed ball and being forced to play a safety shot. Having the break is supposed to be the advantage to the breaker.

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Originally Posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
Well, this is now the 4th time in the last 7 years that the 'ball on the break' topic has been debated...and here's my response from 1-1/2 years ago - in part, explaining why what is being called the "break and sit down" option would be a very bad change/unfair to the breaker.....and this re-posting from that 1997 thread also includes the posts of John Henderson, Dr. Bill, Steve Booth, LSJohn, etc. agreeing with my choice of rule change - if that is, any change was to be implemented ----->


I'm old school and I don't like a re-rack, for all the same reasons that have already been stated by others.

But, that said, if a new rule had to be made re. making the ball on the break (i.e. for a particular tournament for example), I believe that the rule change that I conceived, and have used on occasion, is the best and fairest way to go..and that is...

If the breaker makes the corner ball on the break he gets to keep the ball, but cannot pocket a second ball, and instead has to play a safety for his following shot...

This rule still rewards the breaker for breaking that particular rack well and making the corner ball, but it doesn't let him run several balls, or run out the game because of it, which can reasonably be considered as too great of a reward......but conversely, it's not at all a good idea/rule change option, to spot the ball, or let the breaker keep it, but allow his opponent to shoot right after the breaker makes that ball on the break - because the opponent may easily have a free, simple, game-changing cross-corner bank to shoot, or worse yet, a ball sitting if front of his pocket - so that particular rule change would unfairly favor him, very possibly enabling him to run several balls, or run out.........my rule change would be a 'happy medium' option to utilize - if a change had to be made.

- Ghost

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSJohn

Good compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhendy

This is a good option. I like it better than re racking or spotting the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve

I like your suggestion too Ghost

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona

I'm with the people that wants to keep the breaking rule the way it is, I feel that if a player hits the break good he should get rewarded, a rerack, or even losing your shot is not the way to go. Your suggestion on playing another shot as long as you don't pocket a ball is a good alternative. I'm all for your suggestion.

Dr. Bill
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  #52  
Old 08-20-2019, 06:54 AM
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NH Steve NH Steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One Pocket Ghost View Post
Well, this is now the 4th time in the last 7 years that the 'ball on the break' topic has been debated...and here's my response from 1-1/2 years ago - in part, explaining why what is being called the "break and sit down" option would be a very bad change/unfair to the breaker.....and this re-posting from that 1997 thread also includes the posts of John Henderson, Dr. Bill, Steve Booth, LSJohn, etc. agreeing with my choice of rule change - if that is, any change was to be implemented ----->


I'm old school and I don't like a re-rack, for all the same reasons that have already been stated by others.

But, that said, if a new rule had to be made re. making the ball on the break (i.e. for a particular tournament for example), I believe that the rule change that I conceived, and have used on occasion, is the best and fairest way to go..and that is...

If the breaker makes the corner ball on the break he gets to keep the ball, but cannot pocket a second ball, and instead has to play a safety for his following shot...

This rule still rewards the breaker for breaking that particular rack well and making the corner ball, but it doesn't let him run several balls, or run out the game because of it, which can reasonably be considered as too great of a reward......but conversely, it's not at all a good idea/rule change option, to spot the ball, or let the breaker keep it, but allow his opponent to shoot right after the breaker makes that ball on the break - because the opponent may easily have a free, simple, game-changing cross-corner bank to shoot, or worse yet, a ball sitting if front of his pocket - so that particular rule change would unfairly favor him, very possibly enabling him to run several balls, or run out.........my rule change would be a 'happy medium' option to utilize - if a change had to be made.

- Ghost

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSJohn

Good compromise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhendy

This is a good option. I like it better than re racking or spotting the ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve

I like your suggestion too Ghost

Quote:
Originally Posted by wincardona

I'm with the people that wants to keep the breaking rule the way it is, I feel that if a player hits the break good he should get rewarded, a rerack, or even losing your shot is not the way to go. Your suggestion on playing another shot as long as you don't pocket a ball is a good alternative. I'm all for your suggestion.

Dr. Bill
I still agree here -- I prefer the original old school rules of continuing to shoot if I make a ball on the break. I understand if specific players are gambling and they want to rerack, but I don't think it is necessary for 99% (or more) of One Pocket.

I like "Break and Sit" better than rerack because it is simple.

I also like the idea of "Keep the Ball and Play Safe" if the breaker makes a ball on the break. The only thing I don't like about that idea for a rule is if you adopt it then you need another rule -- if the shooter pockets a ball in their own pocket on their "safe" then it spots. That goes against my "keep iot simple" mantra.
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  #53  
Old 08-20-2019, 09:44 AM
darmoose darmoose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve View Post
I still agree here -- I prefer the original old school rules of continuing to shoot if I make a ball on the break. I understand if specific players are gambling and they want to rerack, but I don't think it is necessary for 99% (or more) of One Pocket.
Opinions galore about this. In the first place any rule is only for tournament play as outside tournaments players will decide how they play. Following that observation, in tournaments the player with the most breaks has a significant advantage. Any new rule is simply trying to offset that advantage somewhat which I think is warranted.

Quote:
I like "Break and Sit" better than rerack because it is simple.
I like this rule. The objections seem to be that the breaker could sell out or because the ball fell into his hole he may have opened up some lanes for the incoming player. First, this is totally unpredictable, and it is fair to both players playing by the same rule. Then we also should think about what your first priority needs to be when breaking; it is to get the CB into a safe position where the stack provides protection. It is not to make a ball or even to move balls near your hole with out regard to whether you sell out or not. If you fail to do this, your break was not optimal.

Quote:
I also like the idea of "Keep the Ball and Play Safe" if the breaker makes a ball on the break. The only thing I don't like about that idea for a rule is if you adopt it then you need another rule -- if the shooter pockets a ball in their own pocket on their "safe" then it spots. That goes against my "keep iot simple" mantra.
I dislike this option for the same reason you have stated. It further complicates things, and what are you gonna do if the breaker goes on to make another ball? It also does little to nothing to offset the advantage of having the break, as the breaker can easily improve his position, perhaps put you into a trap that may be worse than him making a few more balls.

I look at the break as being a "defensive" shot first (I must get the CB in the proper position and I must not sell out). I would ask anybody, do you break attempting to make a ball or move balls to you hole without regard for whether you sell out or not? I don't think so.

JMHO
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Last edited by darmoose; 08-20-2019 at 09:47 AM. Reason: error
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  #54  
Old 08-20-2019, 12:12 PM
LSJohn LSJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NH Steve View Post
then you need another rule -- if the shooter pockets a ball in their own pocket on their "safe" then it spots.
I don't think another rule is needed. Being required to play safe is the same as calling "safe" in 14:1, right? Make a ball it automatically spots (unless it goes in opponent's pocket. :smile: )
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  #55  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:03 PM
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Tom Wirth Tom Wirth is offline
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I was hoping to let this take it's own course without further input but I guess I just can't resist the temptation to go on. sorry to those of you who are tired of hearing from me about this never ending subject. What concerns me is this body happens to be very influential in how One Pocket is governed. The future of the game is subject to be altered with rules such as the ones we are discussing now. I see this rule has the potential of creating a drastic change in the game. Am I over reacting?

Really! What is the objective with these alternative rules and where did they originate from? Answer...Rack for yourself. Paranoia followed that rack manipulation was occurring when a player happened to make a ball on the break.
This all began when players in Nine Ball tournaments complained ad nauseam that the racker was giving mud racks to the breaker. TDs decided "screw it! Rack your own!"

Did the complains stop? No. Now players complain that the breaker is manipulating the rack to his benefit because he is now continually pocketing balls. Can't win either way. It goes on and on until now in some tournaments the Nine ball gets racked on the spot or the game becomes alternating the break. Who knows what will come next?

Now, for OP.org MOT events. Have we ever ran into this issue? I don't remember a single incident where a racking issue was not resolved quickly and to both player's satisfaction.

Why this has become so involved and with so many varying opinions I can't figure. I have read a few times on this thread..."Keep it simple." I agree, Let's keep it simple and return to the way the game was invented. Rack for each other' allow an inspection of the rack should the opponent wish it, and should the breaker make a ball into his pocket on a legitimate hit, he keeps shooting until he misses.

It is the same for all players. There is no advantage to either player before the flip of the coin or before the lag.

That the ball pocketed happened to be the result of the opening break made no difference until recently when players began to suspect some sort of manipulation was going on because at some point this idea of "rack your own" became the norm. All this is solved by going back to the original format of rack for each other and GO FROM THERE! Make a ball on the break and more power to ya! Shoot on Brother!
Now i ask ya, What could be more simple and straight forward than that?

Tom
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  #56  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:31 PM
lll lll is online now
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^^^^^^^^^^
Tap....Tap........
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  #57  
Old 08-20-2019, 01:49 PM
Dennis "Whitey" Young Dennis "Whitey" Young is online now
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Tom, I of course agree. I am a true time capsule for I haven't played OP since '73. During that era we always racked for the opponent.
Your comment along with my way of thinking is why I started the thread 'opponent racking vs. rack your own, I wanted answers, and so far there has been nothing posted to alarming that would suggest going away from opponent racking.

I played OP everyday in my daily practice. Which meant that I racked my own of course, and at that time I had the hardest time not leaking out the corner ball. I knew I was giving myself good racks, so it had to be my technique not the rack. I find that to be true today, for if the corner ball leaks out I feel that I definitely hit the break bad. thanks, Whitey

Last edited by Dennis "Whitey" Young; 08-20-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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  #58  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:07 PM
beatle beatle is offline
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usually those that cant win and think they are the better player need to find a way to get the luck out of the game and propose all sorts of rules to accomplish that and all they do is end up with things that hurt them even more.

the truth is the better player wins no matter how you change the rules.
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  #59  
Old 08-20-2019, 08:21 PM
lll lll is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beatle View Post
usually those that cant win and think they are the better player need to find a way to get the luck out of the game and propose all sorts of rules to accomplish that and all they do is end up with things that hurt them even more.

the truth is the better player wins no matter how you change the rules.
i learned that the hard way when i thought i had the nuts playing new york blackie 10-4
I HAD NO CHANCE......
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  #60  
Old 08-21-2019, 11:25 AM
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cincy_kid cincy_kid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lll View Post
i learned that the hard way when i thought i had the nuts playing new york blackie 10-4
I HAD NO CHANCE......
I think this is also true (up to a point)...

I may not have any chance playing Dennis 15-5, but he gives me 20-4 or something, I'm all over it!

Point being, the better player usually wins unless the game is just crazy and too far out of whack, then strange things may happen.
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