Bank lesson 2: how do you get max ob spin on cut banks

[Dudley]

Thanks for the posts all.

Larry, I have Beards book, and the results I got (however feeble they are), contrasted with what Beard said in his book, namely inside english you could spin the ball over more. On pages 33 & 35... the results I got indicated half ball hits put more (Androd says about 1/4 ball hits put more, which is what freddy says in his book), and that center ball puts more, not inside as indicated in the book. I posted because my results seemed so different.... I did double check it, but who knows, maybe I did something wrong. Yet, John mentioned something in the other thread about center actually being the one with the most torque ability (this mad sense with my results). So, maybe I can try to set it up again and see if Anrod and Freddy got me.... I probably just overlooked something.... it really did seem that ob was only going over far with 1/2 ball and center ball hit though.

When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.

edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud

[lll]

When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.
edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud

john B mentions this on many shots
he shows several shots with the comment
you will never make this shot if you put too much english on it
{paraphrased)
john correct me if ive misspoken its been awhile since i watched your dvd but this thread will get me to re - read freddies books and watch your dvd again and take better notes this time

[tylerdurden]

When you say using english you have to be very careful how much english. More spin doesn't mean more transfer. There is a really exact amount of spin that will add to the transfer.... put too much english and there will be almost no notable benefit. A cutting angle with center ball does add allot of throw. Put a little english on the shot and it will be more.

edit--> this varies on the angle of the cut so what I said could be right or wrong depending on the angle. When banking less (english) is more in my experience based on what I've learned here and on the table.

Dud

I found that putting a little spin (or a lot) on a half ball cut doesn't put as much torque on the ob as just a dead flat ball. I could be wrong though of course It is interesting, hence the thread. And if I may guess as to why center ball gives the most on cuts.... there are 2 things to consider... force of the torque, and friction. I think the friction with an inside ball (even a minimal amount) is less because it doesn't allow the two balls to grab like a centerball hit does. They slide more.... John described it as "cling" I totally agree with his word. It is counter-intuitive, but I think true

But I DEF agree with you though about the more spin not transferring, or doing LESS. I made another thread about that.

This is what I found, in as few words as I can for those interested. To simplify, i'll just talk about center ball for now....

As you cut a ball from varying degrees with center ball, thin cuts dont put a lot of spin on the ob (relatively speaking), thick hits (say 2/3 of a ball hits) dont get a lot of spin. As you approach half ball hits, they get the most spin... a little bit less or more than half ball, they get a little less spin than half ball. In short, half ball gets the most.... and as you work your way either thinner or thicker.... it keeps getting to be less and less. This is all because half ball is the perfect combination between getting the torque and friction. Thick hit, get a lot of friction, or cling, but cant torque as much. Thin hits get the torque, but not the friction as the balls dont squash together. The impact isn't as forceful.

[Dudley]

I found that putting a little spin (or a lot) on a half ball cut doesn't put as much torque on the ob as just a dead flat ball. I could be wrong though of course It is interesting, hence the thread. And if I may guess as to why center ball gives the most on cuts.... there are 2 things to consider... force of the torque, and friction. I think the friction with an inside ball (even a minimal amount) is less because it doesn't allow the two balls to grab like a centerball hit does. They slide more.... John described it as "cling" I totally agree with his word. It is counter-intuitive, but I think true

But I DEF agree with you though about the more spin not transferring, or doing LESS. I made another thread about that.

This is what I found, in as few words as I can for those interested. To simplify, i'll just talk about center ball for now....

As you cut a ball from varying degrees with center ball, thin cuts dont put a lot of spin on the ob (relatively speaking), thick hits (say 2/3 of a ball hits) dont get a lot of spin. As you approach half ball hits, they get the most spin... a little bit less or more than half ball, they get a little less spin than half ball. In short, half ball gets the most.... and as you work your way either thinner or thicker.... it keeps getting to be less and less. This is all because half ball is the perfect combination between getting the torque and friction. Thick hit, get a lot of friction, or cling, but cant torque as much. Thin hits get the torque, but not the friction as the balls dont squash together. The impact isn't as forceful.

Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little.

Dud

[tylerdurden]

Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little.

Dud

Right, I think one good way to put it is.... for max throw on full hits spin needs to be used to get max english on the ob (john mentioned when the cb stops dead is the most transfer he sees), yet on half ball hits i think the cling using center is the best way to get the max spin on the ob.

[John Brumback]

Right, I think one good way to put it is.... for max throw on full hits spin needs to be used to get max english on the ob (john mentioned when the cb stops dead is the most transfer he sees), yet on half ball hits i think the cling using center is the best way to get the max spin on the ob.

Probably doesn't mean much but I would call it "max turn" instead of "max spin" If that makes since or helps you any.Ya'll are doin good! Keep it up.
I'm taking notes ya know.John B.

[tylerdurden]

Probably doesn't mean much but I would call it "max turn" instead of "max spin" If that makes since or helps you any.Ya'll are doin good! Keep it up.
I'm taking notes ya know.John B.

Ha! Thanks for dropping by John! Max turn it is.

I got a chance to play a little with that max turn with a "stopping dead" cb today... very good stuff... thanks again for all the tips.

Regards.

[Dudley]

Probably doesn't mean much but I would call it "max turn" instead of "max spin" If that makes since or helps you any.Ya'll are doin good! Keep it up.
I'm taking notes ya know.John B.

Can I get a look at your notes when your done???

Always appreciate your input buddy,

Dud

[tylerdurden]

Can I get a look at your notes when your done???

Always appreciate your input buddy,

Dud

I agree. We need to archive those notes and put them in the Smithsonian or something

[tylerdurden]

Tyler,


There is a perfect amount of spin to achieve max throw. Obviously the thicker the hit the more spin you need to throw the ball.
Using the gear explanation when cutting the ball the gear is already turning so if there is a maximum amount of speed that the gear can grab and make maximum throw you would need less and less english the more you cut the ball. (based on your testing this seems like up to a half ball)

This might be just repeating what you have said but I thought this might add something to the conversation.

I am not as knowledgeable as most here on this forum, but I do know a little.

Dud

I just went through and reread this, and I 100% agree with you Dud. At the time, I did not have this fully clear in my head, and as you mentioned previously, I think when I did that experiment (I have never repeated it), I was using quite a bit of inside.

Now, my personal opinion is as you say, max spin with a tad of inside..... center ball will also give you a bunch however.

[straightback]

Turn, turn, turn

If it were me, I'd work with center ball only. There are a few cutesy shots where you can load the ball with inside to give the object ball even more turn, but they are typically restricted to where the object ball is on a rail and the CB is very close.

I say this for a couple reasons - for 1/2 ball hits, you're already getting a sh*tload of turn anyhow. Second, the marginal amount of extra turn you get is somewhat negated by having to calculate the deflection that accompanys the inside English. Third, English transfer (aka the gear effect) is much less with inside English than it is with outside English. Finally, if it was good enough for Eddie Taylor, it's good enough for me.

[tylerdurden]

If it were me, I'd work with center ball only. There are a few cutesy shots where you can load the ball with inside to give the object ball even more turn, but they are typically restricted to where the object ball is on a rail and the CB is very close.

I say this for a couple reasons - for 1/2 ball hits, you're already getting a sh*tload of turn anyhow. Second, the marginal amount of extra turn you get is somewhat negated by having to calculate the deflection that accompanys the inside English. Third, English transfer (aka the gear effect) is much less with inside English than it is with outside English. Finally, if it was good enough for Eddie Taylor, it's good enough for me.

I definitely agree with most everything you said. It is poor of me to speak in absolutes though, because there are so many different cut angles, and differing amount of induced turn will change depending on those angles.

Videos are better..... in relation to what you were saying above, here is an example where I think (or maybe I should say John thinks) a hair of inside will get you more than just center. As I said, my bad for talking in absolutes before. I do like to work with centerball too, because it stiffens balls at pretty much the max, yet your accuracy is so mush better. But, as you know, when the cut angle is a little more straight as in the vid, a tad of spin will be necessary. All other cases, center ball is def a players best friend.

Anyway, here is the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk

Here is another good one where John talks about what he is using on each bank. I would love to get him to expand on his comment about "not liking to use draw" on his banks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCLxeQjwBPE

[Dudley]

I just went through and reread this, and I 100% agree with you Dud. At the time, I did not have this fully clear in my head, and as you mentioned previously, I think when I did that experiment (I have never repeated it), I was using quite a bit of inside.

Now, my personal opinion is as you say, max spin with a tad of inside..... center ball will also give you a bunch however.

I am rereading this as the thread is active again... While I know what I meant to say it's really unclear from the text.

There are many different cut angles and lots going on with different banks.

Between the beards vids and books and Brumbacks DVD I've learned a bunch since this thread.

It's fuzzy to describe certain banks as thin and thick but man depending on how thick or thin you are hitting a bank it makes a big difference how you shoot it. (re choice of english)

Still good stuff in this thread though.

Dudley

[straightback]

I definitely agree with most everything you said. It is poor of me to speak in absolutes though, because there are so many different cut angles, and differing amount of induced turn will change depending on those angles.

Videos are better..... in relation to what you were saying above, here is an example where I think (or maybe I should say John thinks) a hair of inside will get you more than just center. As I said, my bad for talking in absolutes before. I do like to work with centerball too, because it stiffens balls at pretty much the max, yet your accuracy is so mush better. But, as you know, when the cut angle is a little more straight as in the vid, a tad of spin will be necessary. All other cases, center ball is def a players best friend.

Anyway, here is the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cRe9nL2rk

Here is another good one where John talks about what he is using on each bank. I would love to get him to expand on his comment about "not liking to use draw" on his banks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCLxeQjwBPE

As for draw, there are a few reasons to not use it unnecessarily. First, ANY English tends to decrease accuracy compared to center ball. And second, and this is probably why bankers stay away from it, is that it makes banks run long because of English transfer. I'm sure many will argue that it helps them shorten up a ball but this just isn't the case in reality.

[straightback]

Okay, I see the bank you're talking about, more or less the "Grady" bank. That bank can be made with center ball, but because the angle is fairly slight, a whisker of inside spins the ball a touch more. I see what you were getting at originally now. But do be advised, the amount of English transfer you get from inside English is just a fraction of what you get with outside English.