Does something need to be done?

[darmoose]

We played a RR tournament in Philly last year, run by Cory and promoted by Mitch. I think it was fun to play in, allowed everyone to play plenty of games, and no one was eliminated from the competition until late into the tournament.

In that tournament we had five players, and played four games with each of the other four players. Score was kept of total games won, and the two highest games winners played off for the title and the cash. It was Mitch and I in the finals, which I won.

But, the important point is that at least three, maybe four players had a chance to win going into their fnal round of play.

I like the RR format for our tournament, and here is the criteria I think would make it work.

Sunday is reserved for final elimination play only, so we need to decide how many players can make it into the final elimination play. If it is eight, it will take three rounds to complete Sunday's play (for example).

All round robin play is to be completed on Friday and Saturday. I like playing each other player an even number of games, so the breaks are equal. So, you break the field up into eight groups of four players. You determine the number of games to be played with each other player by calculating an average game time, times the number of hours of play we want each day. For example, if we want 10 hours of play per day, each of the four players in a group, assuming 30 minutes per avg game, would play two other players four games each. This would allow an extra two hours per day for slow play.

If there are ties in the total number of games won, during the RR rounds, a playoff is used the break the ties (maybe a race to two or three) on Saturday night. If time permits on Friday, players can start a third round, and only partially finish, to create extra time available on Saturday if needed.

ON Sunday, you are left with eight players who play a single elimination tournament of races to three, requiring three rounds and done.

 

[Cory in dc]

Depending on the exact # of entries, could this format work using less than 8 man groups? Reason being, say the total # of players entered was 36, so then could you do 6 groups of 6 and play everyone in your group a true RR? This would seem to be the fairest way to play a RR imo... That would be 10 games minimum for every player, playing each player 2 games on Friday... Should be completed in a reasonable amount of time, allowing for action and other activities in the evening...

Advancing the top 2 players with the best winning percentage
out of each group of 6, there would be 12 players left in, call it, group “A”
Divide these 12 group “A” players into 2 groups of 6 and play another 10 games on Saturday...

Advancing the top 2 out of each 6 man group will leave 4 players... These 4 could play a single elimination tournament, race to 4 for the championship...

Seems like there are many ways to tweak this format to where it will benefit all the players who entered the tournament... Cory, would it be possible to find a way for the players who were eliminated early to have a mini tournament, or perhaps a second chance tournament... After all, it’s only seems fair to give good value to everyone who makes the trip... This would be another nice way for the players to spend time with each other and share the experience of a once a year trip...

I do like the concept of a RR tournament, lots of ways to make it more favorable
to all who enter...

Thank you...

Yes, Jeff, there are tons of options. RR uses all the tables through most of the tournament, so one way or another, everybody gets to play more. And since more tables are being more steadily used throughout, it's mechanically true that any given number of rounds can be completed in less time with RR than with DE.

If Steve and the broader group are genuinely interested, I think a small group of no more than 5 people could come up with a format proposal, post it, get feedback, and finalize it. They'll just need thick skins.

 

[darmoose]

Yes, Jeff, there are tons of options. RR uses all the tables through most of the tournament, so one way or another, everybody gets to play more. And since more tables are being more steadily used throughout, it's mechanically true that any given number of rounds can be completed in less time with RR than with DE.

If Steve and the broader group are genuinely interested, I think a small group of no more than 5 people could come up with a format proposal, post it, get feedback, and finalize it. They'll just need thick skins.

Cory,

I am in total agreement with you regarding the RR format for our members tournament. It can easily resolve the problems we are having.

It can also accommodate many more players because you simply divide the field into eight groups, then determine how many games you can fit into two days of play, in order to come up with the eight finalists.

This is a no brainer as far as I am concerned. It also gives everbody more games to be played before being eliminated.

 

[HowardK]

Reduced Games?

Reduced Games?

In as far as speeding things up, you certainly don't want to deprive a player who has traveled hundreds or thousands of miles only to play a race to 2 using double elimination format. I don't believe a shot clock would work either.

I've seen Hard Times in Sacramento use a fixed time of 2 hours for a race to 2. At the end of 2 hours, the person with the most balls wins and advances. I haven't played a RR for one pocket. But I would be in favor of it as it allows one to play more than 2 rounds.

Or, we could start the play earlier or on Thursday and use a full 4 days for the tournament.

Any thoughts?

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I of course was a newbie at this member tourney. A great place for the event and wow did Ca. billiards turn over backwards to accommodate our event. I have no doubt that they would open their doors earlier to help us get through this event, but we have to do our part to make the event go on schedule.

From my perspective I believe the event should start 11:00 am Friday or noon to allow warm up. Everyone would then come in Wed. or Thurs. Play a Friday full day of rounds and the players that go out on Friday can have a last chance tournament on Saturday completely separate from the main tournament. I suggest this would be only 2 game match with the winner based on total number of balls made to offset a tie if both players win a game. This probably would be a single elimination.

Or, since with a 32 man field there would only be 8 players out on Saturday then they could play a RR of one game/match Saturday and then the player with the most total balls cumulated would be the winner. As Henry stated per Ronnie Allen's idea. It would have to be lag for break for it is just one game, and we would want the break based upon billiard skills.

I say this because on Friday of this tournament it started @ 4 pm playing two full rounds, with the 2nd. rd. being a winners side. Well this is counter productive to get the tournament done on time on Sunday, for the one loss side is the side that needs to get done!

I viewed the Sundays matches and what I noticed from the commentary and players that they were dog tired. I know this feeling playing in the wbca on the losers side, and it was worst when they lowered the race. So lowering the race allows the tournament to stay on schedule but the players do not get a rest, so there are draw backs and this really shows up when you get on in age. A couple of times I played 13 hrs. straight without a break, and towards the end the players get younger and younger. So something to think about when considering lowering the race.

This is telling; What was the age of the final four players in our tournament?

One note; the on the hill hammer match took a good 4 hrs. to play! Ca. Billiards opens at 11:00 am and closes @ 2:am so at this rate that equals 3 matches (rounds) being played and finished.

RR I like but I think there should be seeding vs. just a draw! This would equal out the separate groupings. Whitey

 

[Scrzbill]

Most of us were there on Thursday, many on Wednesday. Why is it we always have people wanting to change things because........... We can have a four day tournament. 3/3. What do you plan to do with two players who play defense on every shot, tell them they cant play defense anymore? So what it ended in the morning? Really, no one that was there is complaining. If you werent there SHUT UP.

 

[LSJohn]

If you werent there SHUT UP.

Oh, my.

 

[youngstown]

Does something need to be done?

...So what it ended in the morning?

I wasn’t there. But I’ll answer your questions anyway. Because: (1) it didn’t just end in the morning- it ended at 8 in the morning. One of the latest finishes I can ever recall for a tourney. (2) that looks like we can’t run a tourney very well (3) some ppl can’t stay out that late for various reasons like having jobs or life commitments, age, health, etc (4) it makes for more difficult logistics in regards to planning a trip. (5) few ppl care to stay up that late to watch. (6) the tourney is bigger than just the folks who were there. (7) some if not now but someday will look at us to see how things should be done, what works best, etc.

 

[Scrzbill]

I wasn’t there. But I’ll answer your questions anyway. Because: (1) it didn’t just end in the morning- it ended at 8 in the morning. One of the latest finishes I can ever recall for a tourney. (2) that looks like we can’t run a tourney very well (3) some ppl can’t stay out that late for various reasons like having jobs or life commitments, age, health, etc (4) it makes for more difficult logistics in regards to planning a trip. (5) few ppl care to stay up that late to watch. (6) the tourney is bigger than just the folks who were there. (7) some if not now but someday will look at us to see how things should be done, what works best, etc.

1. So what? 2. It didn’t have anything to do with how the tournament was run. 3. If you have other committments OP>org tournaments are not for you. 4. See #1. 5. See #1 6. See#1 7. You should have gone because the people that went had the blast of this year. 7. Rebuttal. Ridiculous.
Just for an example, the tournaments in Sacramento go to 4 am on a monthly basis. Why don’t you complain about this. Oh you don’t watch them? The DCC one year had their bank finals START at 3:30 am 8. Go to AZ Billiards tournaments. Oh they don’t have one? Moaning and groaning won’t change the fun for those of us that went. We are sorry that things didn’t fit into your schedule. If you would provide $3200 in prize money, pay for hotels, food, drinks, and travel, we will have the Youngstownkid Tournament anyway you like.
No really, we all can agree that it was especially late ending but the room owner could have stepped in, Steve could have stepped in, the players could have agreed to split, and on and on but the thing was on schedule at 5 pm yesterday and we were talking about finishing by mid nite at 5pm Sunday night. It didn’t happen, but it did go on schedule for two and one half days. We finished on schedule Friday, and Saturday, and most of Sunday. It’s that damn Pilots wanting to win so bad that he drew out each game to its dying breath. If anything, I say we bar him from future play because on both occasions, he has been the one factor we can blame for the lateness.

 

[Tobermory]

There is no virtue in finishing a tournament at 5 in the morning. There are lots of reasons pointed to by youngtownkid why it is not a good idea. Just because some pool players think it is cool or romantic or traditional or old school doesn't mean it is a good idea to plan a tournament so that it ends in the middle of the night. It can be planned so that that doesn't happen. Bill may want to dictate these terms but if we put it to a vote I'll bet him even money that the members would prefer something other than a 1 am booty call for the final match.

This can be solved. Nobody has to shut up.

 

[youngstown]

Does something need to be done?

1. So what? 2. It didn’t have anything to do with how the tournament was run. 3. If you have other committments OP>org tournaments are not for you. 4. See #1. 5. See #1 6. See#1 7. You should have gone because the people that went had the blast of this year. 7. Rebuttal. Ridiculous.
Just for an example, the tournaments in Sacramento go to 4 am on a monthly basis. Why don’t you complain about this. Oh you don’t watch them? The DCC one year had their bank finals START at 3:30 am 8. Go to AZ Billiards tournaments. Oh they don’t have one? Moaning and groaning won’t change the fun for those of us that went. We are sorry that things didn’t fit into your schedule. If you would provide $3200 in prize money, pay for hotels, food, drinks, and travel, we will have the Youngstownkid Tournament anyway you like.
No really, we all can agree that it was especially late ending but the room owner could have stepped in, Steve could have stepped in, the players could have agreed to split, and on and on but the thing was on schedule at 5 pm yesterday and we were talking about finishing by mid nite at 5pm Sunday night. It didn’t happen, but it did go on schedule for two and one half days. We finished on schedule Friday, and Saturday, and most of Sunday. It’s that damn Pilots wanting to win so bad that he drew out each game to its dying breath. If anything, I say we bar him from future play because on both occasions, he has been the one factor we can blame for the lateness.

I’m just trying to help, sir. I’m not trying to be an ass. I don’t buy that’s it’s one slow player, nor anything else you’re selling. I get that you like it. Great. If others don’t, there are relatively easy solutions that are low maintenance and manageable. I am sorry I couldn’t attend as well, but I’ll never miss my son’s birthday, even if it means taking home a bunch of dough.

 

[jlcomp45]

I’m just trying to help, sir. I’m not trying to be an ass. I don’t buy that’s it’s one slow player, nor anything else you’re selling. I get that you like it. Great. If others don’t, there are relatively easy solutions that are low maintenance and manageable. I am sorry I couldn’t attend as well, but I’ll never miss my son’s birthday, even if it means taking home $3200 of your money.

Tap tap tap

 

[Scrzbill]

There is no virtue in finishing a tournament at 5 in the morning. There are lots of reasons pointed to by youngtownkid why it is not a good idea. Just because some pool players think it is cool or romantic or traditional or old school doesn't mean it is a good idea to plan a tournament so that it ends in the middle of the night. It can be planned so that that doesn't happen. Bill may want to dictate these terms but if we put it to a vote I'll bet him even money that the members would prefer something other than a 1 am booty call for the final match.

This can be solved. Nobody has to shut up.

Where do you get I’m trying to dictate, I’m not the one demanding change to a successful private event that no one in the world of pool cares two cents about except mostly the two that won.The final match did start at 1pm didn’t it? There is nothing wrong with the set up. There were two matches on the winners side, and two matches on the losers side at 11 am.
What would be a better start to the final day, one match? Two? What do you want? You had one of the longest matches in the whole tournament, 5 hours. Maybe the solution is to end each match at two hours with whom ever is ahead. There’s a suggested solution. It’s all BULLSHIT. It doesn’t have anything to do with being cool, romantic, traditional, old school, new school or anything else. It has everything to do with bragging rights and having a good time. I will put it to a vote for the members that went, not the couch potatoes who want to gripe that they just had to watch an amateur tournament to see the finish. People who were watching are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Friday went as planned. Saturday went as planned. Sunday started out as well as it could, two matches each side, and went a little sideways. SO WHAT? Shut up again because there is NO problem. It’s a members tournament for the ones who want to go, ONCE a year. It’s like NEW YEARS. People who don’t drink go out and get drunk. This is OP.Orgs New Years. It’s fine the way it is. I’ll bet you this and lay you odds, the members that went had a good time and would not change a thing. (contrarians as yourself don’t get a vote) The members who just had to stay up late for one night want to change the whole format, number of wins losses, time played, you name it. I say it’s like voting for where the tournament is going to be held, if you don’t plan to go, you don’t get a vote. How much you willing to bet, I still have money left. I’ll even play you even for it, with a shot clock for you. I don’t need one because I’m thinking three shots ahead. By the way Mike, I wish we could have spent more time talking instead of just meeting in the bathroom.

 

[Scrzbill]

I’m just trying to help, sir. I’m not trying to be an ass. I don’t buy that’s it’s one slow player, nor anything else you’re selling. I get that you like it. Great. If others don’t, there are relatively easy solutions that are low maintenance and manageable. I am sorry I couldn’t attend as well, but I’ll never miss my son’s birthday, even if it means taking home $3200 of your money.

If your not buying anything I have to say, what are you selling that means something to me? It was a joke about Jim. As far as I am concerned, this whole thread is looking for a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. Friday went as planned, Saturday went as planned, Sunday started with four matches to finish. Two from the winners, two from the losers. The tournament went as planned. Everyone WHO WENT had a great time. End of story.

 

[jrhendy]

We did not have Matt and Lizz there running the tournament. We missed them and I know they missed us. We had yours truly, Col Bille and Steve trying to keep up with the chart, play in the tournament, do a little commentating, get in a little action and do whatever else needed to be done.

I guess I could have forgone everything but running the tournament and it would have gone a little smoother, but I had a blast. Oh, I ran the players auction along with the Col too. I agree, five in the morning is too long, but I screwed up on not scheduling the hot seat match earlier, thinking it should be on the streamed table. If I was more organized and paying attention instead of playing and having a good time, I would have worked out the schedule so the hot seat could be streamed and still saved a couple of hours. But I didn’t.

I am not apologizing, I did the best I could. We need a full time person keeping up with the matches and running the chart. Like last year with Matt and Lizz, not with two old farts who had a couple too many Jack and Cokes the night before.

My old friend Bill is a little harsh, as always, and there have been some good suggestions to peruse, but the tournament did what it was supposed to do.

 

[youngstown]

Does something need to be done?

We did not have Matt and Lizz there running the tournament. We missed them and I know they missed us. We had yours truly, Col Bille and Steve trying to keep up with the chart, play in the tournament, do a little commentating, get in a little action and do whatever else needed to be done.



I guess I could have forgone everything but running the tournament and it would have gone a little smoother, but I had a blast. Oh, I ran the players auction along with the Col too. I agree, five in the morning is too long, but I screwed up on not scheduling the hot seat match earlier, thinking it should be on the streamed table. If I was more organized and paying attention instead of playing and having a good time, I would have worked out the schedule so the hot seat could be streamed and still saved a couple of hours. But I didn’t.



I am not apologizing, I did the best I could. We need a full time person keeping up with the matches and running the chart. Like last year with Matt and Lizz, not with two old farts who had a couple too many Jack and Cokes the night before.



My old friend Bill is a little harsh, as always, and there have been some good suggestions to peruse, but the tournament did what it was supposed to do.

Not criticizing you, sir. There’s only so much you can do given the circumstances. You did just fine in my book. I feel stupid for getting sucked into this whole trap. Like I said, I was offering help is all. I should have just shut up, as advised.

 

[jrhendy]

Here's a post I made in another thread.

Later, I'll try to revive an old post I made before the first Members Tournament. The gyst was to use round robin groupings to winnow the field down to 8 players who would then play a single elimination bracket. I still think that would be an improvement on several fronts. It uses tables more efficiently because they are all in near-continuous use until the cut is made. More efficient use of tables means the total tournament time is reduced. Everyone gets to meet and play more people. And it's longer until the first person is eliminated. Play would continue on Saturday night until all RR brackets are completed and Sunday would have 3 rounds to determine the winner.
​

I'll try to post details tonight. Last time, I think it was actually Dave Gross and Jeff Sparks who were intrigued and everybody else wanted to stick with a traditional DE.

I also think this is something to think over and it would work out well, but eight players on the final day would still be a problem. Probably the best idea yet without changing the game. Just needs a little fine tuning.

 

[darmoose]

I also think this is something to think over and it would work out well, but eight players on the final day would still be a problem. Probably the best idea yet without changing the game. Just needs a little fine tuning.

John,

Just to clear up a quick point. Eight players on Sunday would not be a problem because it would be a single elimination, That would be only three rounds, not five rounds like in the double elimination.

 

[Cory in dc]

I also think this is something to think over and it would work out well, but eight players on the final day would still be a problem. Probably the best idea yet without changing the game. Just needs a little fine tuning.

The key difference is that the 8 players are in a single-elimination tournament. Three rounds, period. I've come around to the simple Grady rule: fourth uptable ball gets spotted. We could do that globally or at the 2 hour mark in any match. I think that if everyone knows that's coming, they'll play it a few times locally and know how to adapt.

I was watching this year, but I went to the first two and I'll be at the next one.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I don't know why you are blaming yourself John. The fact is all three have ran very late on the last day. This one was just a few hours later. That obviously has to change. I'm sure there isn't one person except maybe Ky. Bill who would prefer a 3:00 am finish on a Sunday night after a three day tournament. Using the same format it has happened every single tournament...This isn't an anomaly. Having our friends Matt and Lizz there would not have helped when there are too many matches scheduled for the last day. One thing nobody has mentioned is we only had 23 verified members there this year. Jay Helfert made a very good post about changes needed. Maybe we should all listen...