Reassessing "the Bite"

[1 HOLE NUT]

The "Bite" of Cliff Joyner:

The “Cliff bite” and what it turned into for me

Pool is and will most likely be my only real hobby. When I was in my late teens and early 20's, I thought being the best pool player in my neighborhood meant something, until I went to Mobile, Alabama for a McDermott tour stop tournament. I was able to see pros and short stops for the first time. Being so young I really did not realize the greatness of what I was seeing. At the top of that greatness was Cliff Joyner who won both the 9-ball and One Pocket events. At the time I knew that was awesome but not until many years later would I begin to appreciate just how strong that was.

I could not spell One Pocket until I reached my early 30's. Getting to play with someone close to Cliff’s speed (Mike Surber aka Biloxi Mike) made me fall for One Pocket in such a way as to leave 9-ball so far in the rear view that I don’t even care to play it anymore! I would have bet that never could have happened!

In pool having heroes that want to beat you out of your money is a funny feeling but we all get it. In order to improve the best way, in my opinion, is to spar with the best as much as you can afford to. There is NO ONE better to match up with than Cliff. He has always been one of the only ones that will take a bit of the worst of it to get in action. Little does he know that is one of his most popular traits that attracts fans. It’s not that he ain't trying to win; he has outrun a lot of those big spots in his day from what I hear! (I am one of those lucky ones that is up on him, money wise. It ain't much but at least I am in the plus there!)

Unlike almost any other sport, in pool you can interact and play with the best in the country and even in the world. For a recreational pool player/fan that interaction feels exactly like it would for any other fan of any other sport if they were able to interact with their heroes, totally awesome! Golf with Tiger Woods, baseball with Babe Ruth, basketball with Michael Jordan, pool with Cliff Joyner; think about it like that. With that there is a flip side, though. You will see and learn things about your heroes that you will wish you never did. One of the many things that gets most of us is that most great pool players are not real good with their winnings and have to BITE whoever they can to continue on their chosen path in life. With tons of people coming out to play and watch these great players there is a lot of chances for them to attempt the bite. I'm sure I have been bitten before Cliff and most likely after, but despite his reputation of the bite and the fact that he is one of the best One Pocket players to ever live, and now with his current health situation, I have reevaluated the way I look at the “Cliff bite.” I had nothing but little bites since I have known him because he knows I usually don’t have it. I have heard of plenty of bigger ones he got over the years, but I can only talk about mine which has been more powerful for me than he could ever imagine.

I was at the Southern Classic (Mini Derby) in Tunica in 2012. Because of the time I spent practicing with Mike Surber and matching up with Cliff I was able to go deep in the One Pocket event, like 15th place. As I went up to the desk to get my winnings Cliff was standing there and asked how I did and what it paid. Thinking he was really interested in my results made me feel even better about myself! He walked away. I waited for my check. They told me I could go cash it at the casino cage. So, as I make my way there Cliff appeared out of nowhere from behind a slot machine and asked for the norm, $40. I was still so excited I did not even hesitate to peel it off and then off to the cage I went. On my way back from the cage I happened to look over at the craps table and there was Cliff. It literally crushed me that I could be (and still am) that naive. In a matter of minutes I had a story that I was proud of change to one I would use to bad mouth Cliff for the next 5 years or so until now. Like most “Cliff bites” the money was not really enough to worry about but the principal of the action was what got me!

As we get older we tend to mature and change our mindset on different issues. Being 44 now I have changed my mindset about the “Cliff bite” a full 180 degrees for multiple reasons. First of all, he has suffered a medical issue that has almost completely taken away his ability to earn a living. Secondly, to this day, even after his stroke, he has not stopped trying to outrun the nuts both in pool and in life! Lastly, he has given me and countless other pool fans so much entertainment and knowledge on video and in person that I think he may actually deserve ever bite he gets!

The pool world has some shady characters and maybe Cliff is one of them, but for as long as we have him around to learn from, when he calls me and I have it, I will be paying via the “Cliff bite!”

Jason "1holenut" Moran

(aka Donkey)

 

[1 HOLE NUT]

Thanks Kelly

Thanks Kelly

I want to thank our own "1andDone" Mr. Kelvin "Kelly" Greenleaf for helping me make this post soothing to the ear, i tend to run all my thoughts together in a incoherent display.

 

[jrhendy]

Thank you, very nice article. Ronnie Allen bit me more times than I can count. I met him while in High School and in his later years, along with many others, helped him out when he asked. I took him to Derby City and Galveston and we went to the race track quite a few times over the years, and for someone who loved the horses as much as RA and went as often as he did, he was an awful handicapper. I picked up bad checks written to the pool room and even a cue or two out of hock a time or two. I never regretted it, Ronnie was Ronnie.

Did he take advantage of our friendship, sure, but I could afford it and enjoyed his company until the drinking got so bad it was hard to be around him anymore.

Ronnie, like Cliff is one of a kind and we are not likely to run into anyone like them again. You are one of the few I know who loves one pocket as much as I do, and a lot of that love came from these two guys. We are lucky to have known them.

 

[1 HOLE NUT]

Thank you, very nice article. Ronnie Allen bit me more times than I can count. I met him while in High School and in his later years, along with many others, helped him out when he asked. I took him to Derby City and Galveston and we went to the race track quite a few times over the years, and for someone who loved the horses as much as RA and went as often as he did, he was an awful handicapper. I picked up bad checks written to the pool room and even a cue or two out of hock a time or two. I never regretted it, Ronnie was Ronnie.

Did he take advantage of our friendship, sure, but I could afford it and enjoyed his company until the drinking got so bad it was hard to be around him anymore.

Ronnie, like Cliff is one of a kind and we are not likely to run into anyone like them again. You are one of the few I know who loves one pocket as much as I do, and a lot of that love came from these two guys. We are lucky to have known them.

Yep Mr. John we are lucky, I have heard some of the story's of Ronnie and Cliff game heroics and i cant help but think what people would have witnessed if they would have been freewheeling in games where they were stealing, O wait they probably was, as far ahead as they where then everyone else.

 

[1andDone]

Yeah, it has to suck to be one of those guys with that much skill and that much talent and not be able to earn a decent living doing it. What's worse is the treatment and lack of respect those guys get, including Cliff, when they walk into local pool rooms. When I hear some of the things people say about Cliff, it makes me want to throat punch some them. How difficult is it to have a little respect?
The way I see it, players are in the pool room for 1 of 2 reasons. Either they are there for the sole purpose of getting the money by any means necessary, or they are there because they love the game and want to play, hopefully getting the money. There's a huge difference. If you are the first guy, you have no room to say anything negative about anyone because you re the same as them. If you are the second guy, you will give players like Cliff the respect they deserve for what they have done for you and the game. Let's face it. At one time or another Cliff was a hero to most everyone in this group.

 

[LSJohn]

The "Bite" of Cliff Joyner:

for as long as we have him around to learn from, when he calls me and I have it, I will be paying via the “Cliff bite!”

Jason "1holenut" Moran

(aka Donkey)

Good for you, Jason. And the bonus is, you'll be happier thinking that way.

I'd hate to have to pay off the dollar value of all the pleasure these guys have given me over the years......

(but I do have to keep two or three lookouts on retainer to help me duck Hendy.... you know how he is. )

 

[Maxwell]

My personal indoctrination into helping a pro was with the Monk. He gave me what I thought was the nuts for cheap for five years or so. I seemed to always win about 30% and him 70%. Some said he played me like a fiddle but I enjoyed all of it. It was money I had to spare so not much pain involved. I would gladly do it all again though neither or us can play much any longer.

 

[12squared]

Thank you, very nice article. Ronnie Allen bit me more times than I can count. I met him while in High School and in his later years, along with many others, helped him out when he asked. I took him to Derby City and Galveston and we went to the race track quite a few times over the years, and for someone who loved the horses as much as RA and went as often as he did, he was an awful handicapper. I picked up bad checks written to the pool room and even a cue or two out of hock a time or two. I never regretted it, Ronnie was Ronnie.

Did he take advantage of our friendship, sure, but I could afford it and enjoyed his company until the drinking got so bad it was hard to be around him anymore.

Ronnie, like Cliff is one of a kind and we are not likely to run into anyone like them again. You are one of the few I know who loves one pocket as much as I do, and a lot of that love came from these two guys. We are lucky to have known them.

Nice write up, Jason. I'm replying to John's post because even I got bitten by Ronnie one time...it was cheap, but I felt I had a rite of passage after that.

John, our buddy Dan got bit by Cliff numerous times, many of them were hold my cue until I pay you...than he "borrowed" it back because he got in action; never seeing the cue or the money again. (unless he got lucky and caught him at a good time).

Both guys provide so much knowledge and entertainment, it's worth it.

Dave

 

[sappo]

Nice write up, Jason. I'm replying to John's post because even I got bitten by Ronnie one time...it was cheap, but I felt I had a rite of passage after that.

John, our buddy Dan got bit by Cliff numerous times, many of them were hold my cue until I pay you...than he "borrowed" it back because he got in action; never seeing the cue or the money again. (unless he got lucky and caught him at a good time).

Both guys provide so much knowledge and entertainment, it's worth it.

Dave

Hey Dave does your buddy Dan live up in the Seattle area now? Keith

 

[12squared]

Hey Dave does your buddy Dan live up in the Seattle area now? Keith

Yes he does

 

[1andDone]

John, our buddy Dan got bit by Cliff numerous times, many of them were hold my cue until I pay you...than he "borrowed" it back because he got in action; never seeing the cue or the money again. (unless he got lucky and caught him at a good time).

Both guys provide so much knowledge and entertainment, it's worth it.

Yep, he put that one on me as well. I knew it was coming, though. I didn't care. If I can afford it, I'll always accept the "bite." I'm one of the lucky ones. He pays me back more than he doesn't.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Yeah, it has to suck to be one of those guys with that much skill and that much talent and not be able to earn a decent living doing it. What's worse is the treatment and lack of respect those guys get, including Cliff, when they walk into local pool rooms. When I hear some of the things people say about Cliff, it makes me want to throat punch some them. How difficult is it to have a little respect?
The way I see it, players are in the pool room for 1 of 2 reasons. Either they are there for the sole purpose of getting the money by any means necessary, or they are there because they love the game and want to play, hopefully getting the money. There's a huge difference. If you are the first guy, you have no room to say anything negative about anyone because you re the same as them. If you are the second guy, you will give players like Cliff the respect they deserve for what they have done for you and the game. Let's face it. At one time or another Cliff was a hero to most everyone in this group.

I guess there is different view points on things how some of these "icons" are treated and respected...

When a local legend who you've always considered a friend cheats you and other players in order to win a amateur tournament. Does he earn my respect? Or if he pesters every player that comes through the door of the pool room and blames or whines to them if they don't donate when they know that money goes to his family who are drug addicts and thieves that are too lazy to work. Or his personal drug addiction.. So now those local players go to a different pool room because they don't get hassled there... Real nice for the room owners...

So do you donate and continue to enable his and his families drug addictions and criminal lifestyles because they gave something special to a game? How about they con you into feeling sorry for them and put the bite on you for money to pay entries into a major tournament that they never plan on attending. Then you find out that they just got said money from someone else as well. Now your money and the other friends money went to bail out his drug addict daughter for counterfeiting. Real nice..
I could go on and on and on. The horror story never stops. But you tell me, does this or any other player who acts like this deserve my respect no matter how great they were? I used to think so, but not now. I've wised up and know what the words "enabling" and "respect" mean. What about the under age local players who see and learn from this type of behavior? Now they start grooming and preying on them for money and your feeling like punching me in the throat because me and everybody else with any common sense treats this guy as a slug?
I still might get hustled or cheated once in a while because I feel sorry for people. But i was raised with basic human principles not to prey on other human beings to make my living. The bottom line is I just don't respect that way of living no matter who you are and let me tell you something, those guys who continue to steal your money DO NOT RESPECT YOU. You've just been groomed by them to believe they are your friends, but you are just a "customer" to them. :sorry

 

[chicagomike]

The "Bite" of Cliff Joyner:

The “Cliff bite” and what it turned into for me

Pool is and will most likely be my only real hobby. When I was in my late teens and early 20's, I thought being the best pool player in my neighborhood meant something, until I went to Mobile, Alabama for a McDermott tour stop tournament. I was able to see pros and short stops for the first time. Being so young I really did not realize the greatness of what I was seeing. At the top of that greatness was Cliff Joyner who won both the 9-ball and One Pocket events. At the time I knew that was awesome but not until many years later would I begin to appreciate just how strong that was.

I could not spell One Pocket until I reached my early 30's. Getting to play with someone close to Cliff’s speed (Mike Surber aka Biloxi Mike) made me fall for One Pocket in such a way as to leave 9-ball so far in the rear view that I don’t even care to play it anymore! I would have bet that never could have happened!

In pool having heroes that want to beat you out of your money is a funny feeling but we all get it. In order to improve the best way, in my opinion, is to spar with the best as much as you can afford to. There is NO ONE better to match up with than Cliff. He has always been one of the only ones that will take a bit of the worst of it to get in action. Little does he know that is one of his most popular traits that attracts fans. It’s not that he ain't trying to win; he has outrun a lot of those big spots in his day from what I hear! (I am one of those lucky ones that is up on him, money wise. It ain't much but at least I am in the plus there!)

Unlike almost any other sport, in pool you can interact and play with the best in the country and even in the world. For a recreational pool player/fan that interaction feels exactly like it would for any other fan of any other sport if they were able to interact with their heroes, totally awesome! Golf with Tiger Woods, baseball with Babe Ruth, basketball with Michael Jordan, pool with Cliff Joyner; think about it like that. With that there is a flip side, though. You will see and learn things about your heroes that you will wish you never did. One of the many things that gets most of us is that most great pool players are not real good with their winnings and have to BITE whoever they can to continue on their chosen path in life. With tons of people coming out to play and watch these great players there is a lot of chances for them to attempt the bite. I'm sure I have been bitten before Cliff and most likely after, but despite his reputation of the bite and the fact that he is one of the best One Pocket players to ever live, and now with his current health situation, I have reevaluated the way I look at the “Cliff bite.” I had nothing but little bites since I have known him because he knows I usually don’t have it. I have heard of plenty of bigger ones he got over the years, but I can only talk about mine which has been more powerful for me than he could ever imagine.

I was at the Southern Classic (Mini Derby) in Tunica in 2012. Because of the time I spent practicing with Mike Surber and matching up with Cliff I was able to go deep in the One Pocket event, like 15th place. As I went up to the desk to get my winnings Cliff was standing there and asked how I did and what it paid. Thinking he was really interested in my results made me feel even better about myself! He walked away. I waited for my check. They told me I could go cash it at the casino cage. So, as I make my way there Cliff appeared out of nowhere from behind a slot machine and asked for the norm, $40. I was still so excited I did not even hesitate to peel it off and then off to the cage I went. On my way back from the cage I happened to look over at the craps table and there was Cliff. It literally crushed me that I could be (and still am) that naive. In a matter of minutes I had a story that I was proud of change to one I would use to bad mouth Cliff for the next 5 years or so until now. Like most “Cliff bites” the money was not really enough to worry about but the principal of the action was what got me!

As we get older we tend to mature and change our mindset on different issues. Being 44 now I have changed my mindset about the “Cliff bite” a full 180 degrees for multiple reasons. First of all, he has suffered a medical issue that has almost completely taken away his ability to earn a living. Secondly, to this day, even after his stroke, he has not stopped trying to outrun the nuts both in pool and in life! Lastly, he has given me and countless other pool fans so much entertainment and knowledge on video and in person that I think he may actually deserve ever bite he gets!

The pool world has some shady characters and maybe Cliff is one of them, but for as long as we have him around to learn from, when he calls me and I have it, I will be paying via the “Cliff bite!”

Jason "1holenut" Moran

(aka Donkey)

Great write up!!!

 

[1 HOLE NUT]

I guess there is different view points on things how some of these "icons" are treated and respected...

When a local legend who you've always considered a friend cheats you and other players in order to win a amateur tournament. Does he earn my respect? Or if he pesters every player that comes through the door of the pool room and blames or whines to them if they don't donate when they know that money goes to his family who are drug addicts and thieves that are too lazy to work. Or his personal drug addiction.. So now those local players go to a different pool room because they don't get hassled there... Real nice for the room owners...

So do you donate and continue to enable his and his families drug addictions and criminal lifestyles because they gave something special to a game? How about they con you into feeling sorry for them and put the bite on you for money to pay entries into a major tournament that they never plan on attending. Then you find out that they just got said money from someone else as well. Now your money and the other friends money went to bail out his drug addict daughter for counterfeiting. Real nice..
I could go on and on and on. The horror story never stops. But you tell me, does this or any other player who acts like this deserve my respect no matter how great they were? I used to think so, but not now. I've wised up and know what the words "enabling" and "respect" mean. What about the under age local players who see and learn from this type of behavior? Now they start grooming and preying on them for money and your feeling like punching me in the throat because me and everybody else with any common sense treats this guy as a slug?
I still might get hustled or cheated once in a while because I feel sorry for people. But i was raised with basic human principles not to prey on other human beings to make my living. The bottom line is I just don't respect that way of living no matter who you are and let me tell you something, those guys who continue to steal your money DO NOT RESPECT YOU. You've just been groomed by them to believe they are your friends, but you are just a "customer" to them. :sorry

Mr. John if everyone in the pool community was open books and you knew all the things that pool player/hustlers did to make money you and me both would probably never want to talk to none of them, and i have only heard bits and pieces of some really bad things about Cliff, but one of the life lessons that i have learned around the poolroom that also works well in one pocket, is to always play Defense, even when shooting at your hole, meaning though you are lucky enough to be so close to these champions, always play it safe when it comes to money/feelings etc.
When i was younger if you hustled or screwed me out of $5 id hate you for life but things change, people change, and im mainly speaking about myself when i say this because literally that same $5 today is like $25 but luckily for me his skill and knowledge of the game has paid for all the bites and then some.

 

[1andDone]

I guess there is different view points on things how some of these "icons" are treated and respected...

I completely understand that perspective as well. Like Jason (1 hole nut), I went through a period of dogging Cliff for his behavior, and then also had an epiphany. I know it's frustrating when you can't dodge the impending "bite." I believe it is possible, though, to still be respectful to these guys without enabling. I've just heard some really, really, terrible things said about Cliff by one guy in particular. I know Cliff has done some shady things and has not been the most honest person to some. But nothing he has ever done deserves the hate and vitriol that spews out of this guy's mouth! This guy would have us all believe he is a saint and does no wrong. Yet, when it comes to cheating, sharking, hustling suckers, he is the worst! Then he wants to make jokes about Cliff's health condition... Yeah, he deserves a throat punch!
So don't take the "throat punch" comment personal, John. I doubt you or anyone on this site would be deserving!

 

[Scrzbill]

I think it takes two to make a bite. I had a friend who for years I would put in games, lend him money, let him stay at my house, feed, etc.The last time I saw him was the day I had to ask him to leave my house and I was taking him to the bus station. I had one rule for him to stay and although I knew he was breaking the rule I let it slide. Finally my wife said enough, we can’t do it. If someone doesn’t care enough about their life to take care of themselves, then there isn’t anything to do. It was a very tough thing to do, one, because he was in poor health. Two, because it was the end of our realationship. Did he take a bite or two or was I the willing participant in self destructive behavior on both our parts. I wish we could put it past us but I won’t be in that position again no matter. I have another similar situation where I am overly generous with someone. Is that a “bite”? Yes and no.
If I have the money to help someone, I will and do. But just handing money out is off my list. Sorry Mitch.:sorry

 

[youngstown]

Reassessing "the Bite"

I very much enjoyed your write up and appreciate your perspective, Jason. However, John Turturro said it better than I could in the movie Rounders...”about the money, I gotta do this, I gotta say no.”

https://youtu.be/z7NxEj4A1Cg

 

[Frank Almanza]

There are some guys that will always try to bite. Some I don't mind and I will give them something but there are others that I always ask them first before they ask me. That way they leave me alone.

 

[rnewkirk]

Yes, I have had the bite put on me several times over the years, and I only regret one. It was not big enough to hurt my pocket book. It was just the way it was done.

On another note, how many of you knew Big Sam, Black Sam or Sam Barnes. What a great player and personality. Yes, he was a bite artist, small amounts, when he needed it. But, I believe if I had ever needed to ask him for 20 or 50, that Sam would have given it to me if he had it to spare.

Last time I saw Sam was at Tulsa Billiard Palace, like 9, 10 years ago. He was a diabetic and having a lot of trouble with his legs. He was on crutches. Always a hoot to talk to about old times and old pool players.

I asked Sam if he was still playing. He said, Shoot, when I get a game, I still love to play so much, I forget about my legs. I put these crutches down and
take it off(cash).

Sam has been gone for a while now. But it is players and people like Sam that make this such a great and diversified game. I miss seeing and talking to Sam. RIP.

 

[LSJohn]

But it is players and people like Sam that make this such a great and diversified game.

NuevoIglesia, if there's anyone who can brighten a pool room better than you, I haven't met him.

Two thumbs up!