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  • #16
    unless you are in a tournament if you are not a good lagger insist on flipping, if good at the lag insist on that.

    how to get an extra edge before the game even starts.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by vapros View Post
      John, are you suggesting the Texas three-kick rule?
      Heh. I remember, but my auldtymers has erased the punch line.

      ??

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      • #18
        John, the two parties will take turns kicking each other three times until one of them gives up and quits. Joe Blow goes first and kicks the crap out of John Doe three times. Then, as John picks himself up off the ground and prepares his revenge, Joe gives up and quits.
        If it ain't funny, it ain't much.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by lll View Post
          CHAPO
          how else would you like to start the game without the break??
          since i think we will agree (i hope )that someone has to break
          why should it not be the one who lags better??
          in the nba during all star weekend
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Al...ills_Challenge
          the pros are challenged on many skills
          the lag is a skill shot that all competitors know will determine who breaks the last game in a hill hill situation
          so
          the lag is another test of their skill
          Really el chapo doesn't it seem clear? Drop everything, my attitude... think objectively, isn't it clear? Anybody?
          Let us just stipulate for clarity that the average # of runs baseball teams get per game is 8.

          Let us also assume, I have heard Grady quote this number, that the break is worth 2 balls.

          So, if we lay the analogy on top of baseball... 2 balls over 8 total in one pocket is 1/4, or 25% of the balls!

          CAN YOU IMAGINE A BASEBALL TEAM STARTING A GAME OFF WITH TWO FREE RUNS!!! that would be analogous to the way a hill hill match goes down. one player getting ~25% of the balls "free".

          That would be insane, would it not??

          Why don't the tennis pros decide who will get the first break by hitting a ball up in the air and seeing who gets closer to a line they are shooting for? that would be a pretty stupid way to settle matches.... even though there is some skill and touch involved. so, they actually decide it by playing, and give each players the same number of serves.
          Last edited by El Chapo; 03-27-2019, 02:22 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BRLongArm View Post
            Proposed remedy?
            I do not get paid enough but one is to count balls and have the guy who makes more break hill hill. another is a shootout, no hill-hill games (this could also speed things up drastically if desired). watch one if you are up for it, they are pretty exciting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWNjhJ0OSB4 since it is one pocket you could do some sort of bank shootout, or get however creative you want with it.

            the first one would be tough at small tournaments but i feel very doable at large, pro tournaments.

            we could all come up with more, better alternatives, but I do not think we will. we probably should try though in my opinion.

            in tennis they seem to have a very sophisticated tie break system. i can't say i fully understand it, but it emphasizes fairness, and assumes server will win or have a great advantage. that should be our baseline as well... so how can we allow the guy who breaks "win" or have the advantage every time? in tennis, the first guy serves once, then they each serve twice until someone wins by two. no good for one pocket but just the thought they put into it is the point.
            Last edited by El Chapo; 03-27-2019, 02:00 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BRLongArm View Post
              Games won by breaker

              When breaking from his left side of table -- 20 of 38 (53%)

              When breaking from his right side of table -- 24 of 37 (65%)

              Total -- 44 of 75 (59%)

              Doesn't look like a devastating advantage, at least not in this sample size.
              I bet there are tournaments where this number gets up there. almost 60% here. if you look at winning percentages between players, which they had during the ipt, a guy like efren may win 55% of his matches (i can't remember the exact numbers). and other players, who did not win nearly as much, had say 54%. so.... you are saying 59% vs 50% baseline. that is a huge differece (meaning the lag would be the decider a huge amount of the time if I am applying this correctly).... if i got the point across that even one or two percent seems to have drastic impact on who wins the tournaments, at least that was the pattern i noticed when i saw the ipt stats.

              i am just not sure why larry is using this as support, and you are saying it is not devastating. vegas operates off of what is it, fractions of a %? idk, but in the long run how can 60-40 not be huge? wouldnt we all jump at betting everything taking 49-51 in the long run?... and this is 40-60.
              Attached Files
              Last edited by El Chapo; 03-27-2019, 02:51 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BRLongArm View Post
                Games won by breaker

                When breaking from his left side of table -- 20 of 38 (53%)

                When breaking from his right side of table -- 24 of 37 (65%)

                Total -- 44 of 75 (59%)

                Doesn't look like a devastating advantage, at least not in this sample size.
                Here is one I grabbed off AZ by AtLarge:
                Games won by breaker
                Pagulayan -- 20 of 26 (77%)
                Chohan -- 14 of 24 (58%)
                Total -- 34 of 50 (68%)

                I saw some were very close too. I would bet this number, long run for pros shakes out at about 55-58%. Maybe that is a little high, but in this match, as I think we all know, the break can be the entire match of course.


                Whatever, this is not a pissing match, my fault for that, but I think no matter what the stats show, we need to assume the break is an advantage and that each player will win on their break, and set rules accordingly, much like they do in tennis. That is my recommendation.

                Bottom line: "2020 World Series Champions are found to have won, only because they had a 25% head start on runs scored (bc they won the flip, or the lag)" not such a catchy title. Making it read "2020 World Series Champions Outfought The Competition and Prevailed" is not a difficult thing to do in one pocket if you ask me.
                Last edited by El Chapo; 03-27-2019, 02:55 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by vapros View Post
                  John, the two parties will take turns kicking each other three times until one of them gives up and quits. Joe Blow goes first and kicks the crap out of John Doe three times. Then, as John picks himself up off the ground and prepares his revenge, Joe gives up and quits.
                  Oh, yeah, now I remember, "You win."

                  We could change that to, "OK, your break."

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                  • #24
                    another idea for a tie breaker shootout, just in case anyone happens to be listening, is a one hole ghost shootout.

                    id say the best way to do it is let each player rack, they pick a pocket, breaks, gets ball in hand behind the line. whichever player runs more balls in his hole wins the tiebreak. so each gets a turn to run as many as possible after breaking how they saw fit with ball in hand behind the headstring.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by El Chapo View Post
                      another idea for a tie breaker shootout, just in case anyone happens to be listening, is a one hole ghost shootout.

                      id say the best way to do it is let each player rack, they pick a pocket, breaks, gets ball in hand behind the line. whichever player runs more balls in his hole wins the tiebreak. so each gets a turn to run as many as possible after breaking how they saw fit with ball in hand behind the headstring.
                      So Dennis and Alex win every match? And John Schmidt becomes a monster one pocket tournament player? No, one pocket is not just about running balls. Maybe give the non breaker 8-7 in the hill hill match would adjust the advantage.
                      Last edited by BRLongArm; 03-27-2019, 11:14 AM.

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                      • #26
                        why punish the guy who won the lag contest??
                        i guess one of us sees a vase and the other sees 2 faces......

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                        • #27
                          I use to actually practice a lag whereas I would contact the side rail just before the corner pocket and cue ball would end resting within the pocket below the foot rail. I could do this on my table for the rails were very fast and the pocket shelf was very deep, therefore the pockets played very tight, and the cue ball would not drop. That was in '73. I did not lag that way when matched up on a foreign table.

                          I did not play again for decades and really did not know the Lag rules until 2008 when I starting playing tournaments. It was then I had to laugh for my way of lagging was illegal for you can not contact the side cushion, and I did not know this.

                          But, I checked my '68 BCA Rule book, and there is no pocket billiard lag rule, per say, but when going to the glossary under Lagging it directs you to Carom General Rules, which in general also applies to pocket billiards.

                          The rule states; each player has their own cb, the red ball is placed upon the foot spot and the cue balls are to be lagged to the right and left of the red ball, stroking the cb to the foot cushion and return.*The side rails may be touched by the ball in lagging*, though it is not required. Player whose ball comes to rest nearest to the head rail wins the lag.

                          Well I was doing it right after all.

                          A brutal game now days and the lag is ol' so important is the 9-ball Bar Table Championships and using a magic rack. Hit them softly, the corner ball goes in every time and play shape on the 1 ball, winner breaks! Lets just see just how many games I can run out. I do not watch it, and I would not participate in it. Pathetic.

                          Thanks for the thread, Keith! It brought back memories of lagging. Whitey

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                          • #28
                            whitey
                            in todays rules you cannot touch the side rail
                            https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#1...-Order-of-Play
                            1.2 Lagging to Determine Order of Play

                            The lag is the first shot of the match and determines order of play. The player who wins the
                            lag chooses who will shoot first.
                            The referee will place a ball on each side of the table behind the head string and near the head
                            string. The players will shoot at about the same time to make each ball contact the foot
                            cushion with the goal of returning the ball closer to the head cushion than the opponent.
                            A lag shot is bad and cannot win if the shooter’s ball:
                            (a) crosses the long string;
                            (b) contacts the foot cushion other than once;
                            (c) is pocketed or driven off the table;
                            (d) touches the side cushion; or
                            (e) the ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the head cushion.
                            In addition, a lag will be bad if any non-object-ball foul occurs other than 6.9 Balls Still
                            Moving.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by lll View Post
                              whitey
                              in todays rules you cannot touch the side rail
                              https://wpapool.com/rules-of-play/#1...-Order-of-Play
                              1.2 Lagging to Determine Order of Play

                              The lag is the first shot of the match and determines order of play. The player who wins the
                              lag chooses who will shoot first.
                              The referee will place a ball on each side of the table behind the head string and near the head
                              string. The players will shoot at about the same time to make each ball contact the foot
                              cushion with the goal of returning the ball closer to the head cushion than the opponent.
                              A lag shot is bad and cannot win if the shooter’s ball:
                              (a) crosses the long string;
                              (b) contacts the foot cushion other than once;
                              (c) is pocketed or driven off the table;
                              (d) touches the side cushion; or
                              (e) the ball rests within the corner pocket and past the nose of the head cushion.
                              In addition, a lag will be bad if any non-object-ball foul occurs other than 6.9 Balls Still
                              Moving.
                              I know all that stuff! It's hilarious how the rules are now. God help us if a guy could lag and place it in the pocket, take him to jail. What I would like to know is if Carom games still allow the side rail to be contacted? To lazy to look it up, kind of do not really want to know what I'll find, I kind of like the old rule, myself.

                              When Kentucky and I lagged at MOT we had the cb center on the rail, he lagged so bad he hit the cb, crossed over the long string, I knew it was a foul, but I laughed and said; "we better try that again". Do not remember who won the lag, he won the match! lol. Whitey

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