G. Mathews vs. J. Parica 1995 Roanoke

[usblues]

It's.....

It's.....

....the American way.....

 

[wincardona]

IF you could see it (the combo), are you telling me that you wont sell out the 9 ball rail first into the pocket under the 11 ball? It is a little hard to tell but the combo 9 into the 11 may even be available. 10% is not even close to a risk number.

Beard

I could possibly see Parica shooting the combo, but certainly not with the thought that he might get safe.

If either of your shots are available then I wouldn't play the combo unless I was feeling good about making it. But your observation of the 9 ball off the 11 ball is well taken and you could very easily be right. Good call, Beard.

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

If either of your shots are available then I wouldn't play the combo unless I was feeling good about making it. But your observation of the 9 ball off the 11 ball is well taken and you could very easily be right. Good call, Beard.

Dr. Bill

Amen and hallelujah.

Beard

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Parica took all of 25 seconds to shoot the carom of the 1 ball off the 5 ball, he never looked at any other shot.

P.S. Since nobody clearly stated they would shoot the carom as their first choice I'll save my cookies.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Parica took all of 25 seconds to shoot the carom of the 1 ball off the 5 ball, he never looked at any other shot.

P.S. Since nobody clearly stated they would shoot the carom as their first choice I'll save my cookies.

View attachment 6309

View attachment 6310

However, that verifies my core principle for these type situations: Shoot, mutherfu*ker, shoot!

Beard

 

[Frank Almanza]

It looks pretty safe even if the one ball didn't go.

 

[tylerdurden]

It looks pretty safe even if the one ball didn't go.

I could get at least 3 if he would have missed.

 

[NH Steve]

Since Accustats overhead view doesn't include the cue ball angle to the 2-ball it is hard to tell, but in the end view (which is compressed by the camera) it looks like another shot might be for Parica to shoot the short three railer on the 2-ball firmly with a little top left if it would go long enough to potentially rattle those three balls along his own side rail. Something good could happen and Parica should be able to leave the cue ball pretty close to the end rail with only long combos available for Grady -- the way I see it...

pS (of course I like the results that Jose got, but if that carom did not fall it might have been sayonara jose)

Something like this (except imagine the 2-ball continuing on to rattle into -- or off of -- those three balls along the side rail):

 

[fred bentivegna]

Since Accustats overhead view doesn't include the cue ball angle to the 2-ball it is hard to tell, but in the end view (which is compressed by the camera) it looks like another shot might be for Parica to shoot the short three railer on the 2-ball firmly with a little top left if it would go long enough to potentially rattle those three balls along his own side rail. Something good could happen and Parica should be able to leave the cue ball pretty close to the end rail with only long combos available for Grady -- the way I see it...

pS (of course I like the results that Jose got, but if that carom did not fall it might have been sayonara jose) The situation was sayonara Jose to begin with.

Something like this (except imagine the 2-ball continuing on to rattle into -- or off of -- those three balls along the side rail):

PS the 3 rail bank angle is not there to start with. The cue ball would have to be a little further off of the head rail so that you could just stop the cue ball.

Steve, you just dont get it. You have just been presented with the evidence and you are still looking down dark alleys. It's like I give you eating money and you spend it on hookers.

Beard

 

[NH Steve]

PS the 3 rail bank angle is not there to start with. The cue ball would have to be a little further off of the head rail so that you could just stop the cue ball.

Steve, you just dont get it. You have just been presented with the evidence and you are still looking down dark alleys. It's like I give you eating money and you spend it on hookers.

Beard

Oh, I get it alright. But that doesn't mean I would see this particular shot as the best play for me in this situation. Just because I am in a pickle and my opponent has a strong position does not mean I am going to jump at every low percentage flyer that comes along. Another name for that approach is "give up pool".

I think it is fair to say that most players that move well, are still going to wiggle out of many more difficult situations than they are going to shoot their way out of -- although that might not be true for pure shooters. But on the other hand, just because I am a "mover" does not mean I will not shoot when I think it is time to go, even if the shot is tough. What I'm saying is that shooting at flyers is something that can definitely be overdone, just as playing safe can be overdone...

in my humble

 

[fred bentivegna]

Oh, I get it alright. But that doesn't mean I would see this particular shot as the best play for me in this situation. Just because I am in a pickle and my opponent has a strong position does not mean I am going to jump at every low percentage flyer that comes along when things look dire anyway.
That is exactly when you should jump at a low percentage flyer. When would be a better time but when faced with a strong position? Another name for that approach is "give up pool".[/B
] That is exactly the "secret" move that I have been trying to pound into everyone's head. Give up pool. Rather than being offended by my rudeness, you should ask yourself, why would the Beard, a guy who is noted not for his shooting but his strategy, tactics and knowledge, say such a thing? Is the Beard really that dumb all of a sudden? A wise man would try to analyze that which doesnt at first glance seem to make good sense.
I think it is fair to say that most players that move well, are still going to wiggle out of many more difficult situations than they are going to shoot their way out of Not true at all -- although that might not be true for pure shooters. I pray that my opponent will try and move or play safe when I have a position like Parica was faced with. But on the other hand, just because I am a "mover" does not mean I will not shoot when I think it is time to go, even if the shot is tough. What I'm saying is that shooting at flyers is something that can definitely be overdone, That is why you have to know when to take a flyer. just as playing safe can be overdone...

in my humble

Quit spending my money on hookers.

Beard

 

[wincardona]

Oh, I get it alright. But that doesn't mean I would see this particular shot as the best play for me in this situation. Just because I am in a pickle and my opponent has a strong position does not mean I am going to jump at every low percentage flyer that comes along when things look dire anyway. Another name for that approach is "give up pool".

I think it is fair to say that most players that move well, are still going to wiggle out of many more difficult situations than they are going to shoot their way out of -- although that might not be true for pure shooters. But on the other hand, just because I am a "mover" does not mean I will not shoot when I think it is time to go, even if the shot is tough. What I'm saying is that shooting at flyers is something that can definitely be overdone, just as playing safe can be overdone...

in my humble

I believe strongly in you're premise, I keep saying that you have to play the game conducive to your skill level. Every situation is a little different, and I totally understand your logic, Jack Cooney made millions playing with the same logic. But with that said there is a time even for the weakest shooters to gamble and shoot for their pocket, and that will be based on our understanding of positions and when it's right or not right to gamble.

More often than not you have to be at the table to be able to determine if certain shots are available, looking at a picture is often misleading. But if the angle on the 2 ball was available to do what you envisioned then I would agree that a player with your skill level will fare better squeezing. But your squeeze needs to be productive for your choice to be correct. You can't squeeze in a position that leaves your opponent options, if that's the case then you're better off shooting.

Dr. Bill

 

[NH Steve]

Another way of looking at what I am trying to say is that there is a fine line between shooting a "give up shot" and shooting a tough shot in a dire situation that legitimately gives you a chance to win a game that you are otherwise at rather long odds in.

I'm not even sure it is a fine line -- it might even be a fat line for some players. The point is, taking a flyer can be as much an excuse to lose as it is an opportunity to win. Freddy -- just look at the names of the players you used to back the concept of Parica's shot: "Bugs, Ronnie, Kelly, Artie B, and Eddie Taylor". Guess what, those guys were (are) something special -- most of us would fail miserably playing many of their daring super-shots.

I think Dennis dropped a key point when he described Parica's shot choice here, "Parica took all of 25 seconds to shoot the carom of the 1 ball off the 5 ball, he never looked at any other shot." What that means to me -- and this is pretty friggin important -- is that Parica approached that shot with decisiveness and confidence. That is how winners need to approach that kind of shot. I'm going to go on record here and state that should be an important element for any of us in deciding if it really is "time to go" versus time to give up.

I think another element in the decision still needs to be, "Are there any reasonable to execute safeties that might give my opponent a chance to make a mistake?" I think there are a couple:
1. doing something off the 2 ball
2. playing the carom off the 8 (near Grady's side pocket) to noogie the troublesome 4-ball away. There is a nice little gap between the 4-ball and Grady's side rail that makes a good target for that kind of carom. The angle looks pretty close to the natural 30 degree angle to me. I didn't mention this shot because I think other people already did.

 

[lll]

i realize im late to the party but for my skill level i would have shot into the 2 directly or kicked depending how it layed on the table (i dont know if this is what usblues was thinking) to keep the cueball behind it (hopefuly froze) to keep his options limited
unlesss you make the one you sell out
i dont think you can accurately take out the ball in the pocket with this shot
if you know you can than i am all for it
in freddys defence
i understand dire straights call for dire choices
but when is it time to throw in the towel
we have seen lately shane playng from behind and from the lead take the "wrong" shot for the circumstances and win
fortunately for us we dont play shane for money
so freddys princilples will bring home the bacon for most of us
steve i agree with you too that when to throw in the towel
and say ok lets play the next game can be difficut
and this layout maynot be the right time
i hope i danced well on this one to say you are both right

 

[wincardona]

The truth of the matter is that there really weren't any good options for Parica other than playing off the 1 ball. Obviously the angle on the 2 ball was a stiff, meaning that he couldn't create any thing good off the 2 ball. He really couldn't hit and stick because of the position of the 9 ball (free shot) The combination 7-15 balls wasn't available so that's out, and caroming off the 8 ball was difficult because of the position of the 12 ball. Plus shooting the 1 ball carom offered him a couple outs. Not only could he pocket the 1 ball but there also was a fair possibility of moving the 13 ball from Grady's pocket with the shot. Like I said in an earlier post decisions are made by understanding positions, and being able to predict the outcome of the position based on the option chosen. Or at least the most likely outcome. Even though the option Parica chose was difficult to determine the outcome, he was happy with it because he wasn't thrilled with the most likely outcome with the other options, if there were any.

Dr. Bill

 

[vapros]

Not counting the path of the cue ball or the presence of any other balls, how does the chance of success for the cut shot compare with the carom?

 

[wincardona]

Not counting the path of the cue ball or the presence of any other balls, how does the chance of success for the cut shot compare with the carom?

Considering the distance and angle of the cut shot, as opposed to the closeness of the 5 ball in relation to the 1 ball I would rather take my chances shooting the carom. Looks like an easier hit.

Dr. Bill

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Since Accustats overhead view doesn't include the cue ball angle to the 2-ball it is hard to tell, but in the end view (which is compressed by the camera) it looks like another shot might be for Parica to shoot the short three railer on the 2-ball firmly with a little top left if it would go long enough to potentially rattle those three balls along his own side rail. Something good could happen and Parica should be able to leave the cue ball pretty close to the end rail with only long combos available for Grady -- the way I see it...

pS (of course I like the results that Jose got, but if that carom did not fall it might have been sayonara jose)

Something like this (except imagine the 2-ball continuing on to rattle into -- or off of -- those three balls along the side rail):

Steve....Right after Dennis posted this thread, that's the shot that I saw and considered....but it looked like the natural angle (meaning dead ahead) was laying too short (like about 3-in-the-side bank angle), so I never posted about that shot...but if it was laying so that a straight ahead hit would send the 2ball 3 rails and into the 7and 15 balls, and you would be leaving the cueball where he couldn't make the 13ball - then I think it would be an excellent shot - and probably the right shot.

- Ghost

 

[wincardona]

Here's your layout Freddy. It doesn't look like a carom shot though?

Dennis


View attachment 6307

Dennis where did you get this layout from? I have been watching one pocket for over 50 years and I have never seen any thing close to how these balls are positioned. I can't imagine what had to transpire for the balls to end up in a position like this one.

Any ways, of course you shoot the 15 ball here, are there any other options?

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Finally, a voice of reason. If I was staking Parica and he didnt fire all out at the 1 ball, that would end my participation in this match. There is even a possibility that he could get safe by coming under the balls by Gradys pocket. Whether he can get safe or not is meaningless anyway. He must go for the 1 ball.

I would shoot this myself, in my present condition even. What price do you think you could lay that Parica would miss the 1 ball? 7 to 5? 3 to 2? He would keep you broke with those odds.

I keep leaking, what to me is on the last page of the Secret One Pocket Handbook and it usually gets vilified and ignored. No skin off my nose. I dont need to learn it.

I learned this from watching great jail breakers like Bugs, Ronnie, Kelly, Artie B, and Eddie Taylor. One and all I am sure they would pop at the one in this spot. Seen 'em do it too many times.



Beard

Rationale to this move is available through private lessons only.

I should post the layout that Artie ran 8 and out on Jersey Red on. Red had 15 balls surrounding his hole. After that game Red was a cooked goose.

I have naturally forgotten how to post a WEI table again. Here is the link, however.

http://pool.bz/P/?@4ARqY4BYvQ4CHAM4...LTYk4MLIi4NWHI4OQLB1PMfI4jQLB3jXpa1kMfI4kSWo@

Artie sliced in the 15 and the cue ball worked its way through all the balls and ended up in front of Red's pocket with all the balls open and moved over to Artie's side.

Dennis where did you get this layout from? I have been watching one pocket for over 50 years and I have never seen any thing close to how these balls are positioned. I can't imagine what had to transpire for the balls to end up in a position like this one.

Any ways, of course you shoot the 15 ball here, are there any other options?

Dr. Bill

It came from post #8. Freddy was illustrating the concept of cutting the 15 and having the cueball pile through the other balls.

Apparently Jersey Red was playing "mistake-free" this game against AB.

Dennis