Movers/Shooters/Tight Pockets

[jrhendy]

Something has happened to my game in the last few months for the better, that I have not tried to analyze too much but just enjoy.

I play regularly at Hard Times in Sacramento and for the last few years the Gold Crown's had double shimmed 4" pockets. When Ernesto Dominguez recovered the tables in October, he removed a shim on each side, enlarging the pockets to 4 1/4". The reasoning was the shims play harder than the rails and the outside shim had gotten hard and and balls that would normally go in would rattle in the hole and hang up because of the hard shim.

Since the change after recovering, I am playing better. While this is not remarkable because of the looser pockets, It proves a point that Ronny Allen has been telling me for years. The best mover has an advantage on bigger pockets because he can run more balls than he can on tight pockets to go along with his superior moving ability. Think about it. I always considered myself more of a mover than shooter and prefered tighter pockets.

Most of the guys I gamble with run more balls than I do. Not anymore. Among my local peer group I have always been considered more of a mover than a shooter and not a strong banker. That little quarter inch has loosened up my stroke, eliminated some head jerking, let me bank better and allowed me to beat a guy six times in a row that usually gives me fits and still has me stuck a little.

I guess the best one pocket player ever (OK, maybe a tie with Efren) knows what he is talking about. I wish I could have figured it out earlier.

I will be playing on 4" Gold Crowns later this week at the tournament at California Billiard Club in Mountain View. Will my newfound confidence stand up or will I go back to my old ways. I think I am going to smoke em.

 

[vapros]

John, I'm pretty sure Mr. Allen is correct. If you have an edge over your man in moving, it will still be there. If he has an edge over you in shot making, he loses a bit of it when your shot making improves. A guy who hardly ever misses anyway can't be helped by making the pockets bigger.

The thing that always impresses me when I'm watching my many videos of the best players is the fact that they rarely miss a shot. You couldn't help them much by making the pockets bigger.

 

[wincardona]

Something has happened to my game in the last few months for the better, that I have not tried to analyze too much but just enjoy.

I play regularly at Hard Times in Sacramento and for the last few years the Gold Crown's had double shimmed 4" pockets. When Ernesto Dominguez recovered the tables in October, he removed a shim on each side, enlarging the pockets to 4 1/4". The reasoning was the shims play harder than the rails and the outside shim had gotten hard and and balls that would normally go in would rattle in the hole and hang up because of the hard shim.

Since the change after recovering, I am playing better. While this is not remarkable because of the looser pockets, It proves a point that Ronny Allen has been telling me for years. The best mover has an advantage on bigger pockets because he can run more balls than he can on tight pockets to go along with his superior moving ability. Think about it. I always considered myself more of a mover than shooter and prefered tighter pockets.

Most of the guys I gamble with run more balls than I do. Not anymore. Among my local peer group I have always been considered more of a mover than a shooter and not a strong banker. That little quarter inch has loosened up my stroke, eliminated some head jerking, let me bank better and allowed me to beat a guy six times in a row that usually gives me fits and still has me stuck a little.

I guess the best one pocket player ever (OK, maybe a tie with Efren) knows what he is talking about. I wish I could have figured it out earlier.

I will be playing on 4" Gold Crowns later this week at the tournament at California Billiard Club in Mountain View. Will my newfound confidence stand up or will I go back to my old ways. I think I am going to smoke em.

John, this area of debate is very clouded because of the many variables that should be considered, and when you talk about match-ups and throw spots into the equation it becomes even more clouded. A lot has to do with the way you match up against your opponent in terms of moving and ball pocketing accuracy. However, experience also plays a major role when choosing pocket size.

Lets take your game with a player that shoots better than you, but moves under you, and you're playing even.. Yes I agree playing on a looser table will benefit you with this particular opponent because of the reasons you stated. Beating your opponent to the shot will only benefit you if you can take advantage of the opportunity. On a looser pocket table the opportunities awarded to you will be ....better opportunities... Lets take another scenario. You're getting a handicap with an upper echelon pool player that is not as knowledgeable a player as you playing one pocket, but obviously shoots much straighter and runs many more balls than you. Now I strongly feel that the tighter pockets will benefit you. Playing a strong pool player with limited knowledge of a game on tight pockets will confuse him even more. There will be much more decision making for both players on tight pockets, which should benefit the more knowledgeable player, whoever he is. So as you can see (providing i'm right) it's very clouded and certainly not a ..black and white... situation.

Dr. Bill

 

[BackPocket9Ball]

I mean no disrespect with my response here, but I disagree entirely.

Although I am not as good of a player as you are, John, we are similar in that I move considerably better than I shoot.

Here is what I have noticed over a decade of playing one pocket -- when I've played better shooters who didn't move as well as I did, I would most often lose on bucket tables, but hold my own or win on tight tables. And the tighter the table, the better my results were. I believe that this is because a great shooter who sometimes shoots the wrong shots is going to sell out way more on a tight table and give you many more opportunities at your hole, whereas on a bucket table, a great shooter will very often get rewarded for shooting a low-percentage or reckless shot. Obviously things vary somewhat depending upon the two players and the spot involved, but this is just based on my experience.

 

[Scrzbill]

I play regularly at Hard Times in Sacramento and for the last few years the Gold Crown's had double shimmed 4" pockets. When Ernesto Dominguez recovered the tables in October, he removed a shim on each side, enlarging the pockets to 4 1/4". The reasoning was the shims play harder than the rails and the outside shim had gotten hard and and balls that would normally go in would rattle in the hole and hang up because of the hard shim.
Most of the guys I gamble with run more balls than I do. Not anymore. Among my local peer group I have always been considered more of a mover than a shooter and not a strong banker. That little quarter inch has loosened up my stroke, eliminated some head jerking, let me bank better and allowed me to beat a guy six times in a row that usually gives me fits and still has me stuck a little.
I guess the best one pocket player ever (OK, maybe a tie with Efren) knows what he is talking about. I wish I could have figured it out earlier.

It can all be seen how JR Hendy is playing on Ustream, Friday night, Saturday, Sunday. Send all tax deductible donations over $1000. directly to PayPal account.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/california-streaming

There's someone better at one pocket than John?:frus

 

[tylerdurden]

If a guy has a chance at outmoving me, but I shoot better than him, I'd prefer to play him on tight pockets. I have seen this over and over again going from the 2 rooms I played in. The loose pockets the guys can keep up to a greater extent. Tight pockets they just have no chance.

I agree it is not black and white, every little variation counts.... how tight the pockets, how bad he shoots... so many things. But there does come a point where the pockets get too small and hinder at least my game (maybe not top notch players however). Def an interesting discussion.

 

[lfigueroa]

Something has happened to my game in the last few months for the better, that I have not tried to analyze too much but just enjoy.

I play regularly at Hard Times in Sacramento and for the last few years the Gold Crown's had double shimmed 4" pockets. When Ernesto Dominguez recovered the tables in October, he removed a shim on each side, enlarging the pockets to 4 1/4". The reasoning was the shims play harder than the rails and the outside shim had gotten hard and and balls that would normally go in would rattle in the hole and hang up because of the hard shim.

Since the change after recovering, I am playing better. While this is not remarkable because of the looser pockets, It proves a point that Ronny Allen has been telling me for years. The best mover has an advantage on bigger pockets because he can run more balls than he can on tight pockets to go along with his superior moving ability. Think about it. I always considered myself more of a mover than shooter and prefered tighter pockets.

Most of the guys I gamble with run more balls than I do. Not anymore. Among my local peer group I have always been considered more of a mover than a shooter and not a strong banker. That little quarter inch has loosened up my stroke, eliminated some head jerking, let me bank better and allowed me to beat a guy six times in a row that usually gives me fits and still has me stuck a little.

I guess the best one pocket player ever (OK, maybe a tie with Efren) knows what he is talking about. I wish I could have figured it out earlier.

I will be playing on 4" Gold Crowns later this week at the tournament at California Billiard Club in Mountain View. Will my newfound confidence stand up or will I go back to my old ways. I think I am going to smoke em.

Disagree.

I have given guys all kinds of spots, up to 13-5, and I *always* wanted to be on tighter equipment because I knew that I could still pocket balls, run balls, and take balls out of the other guy's pocket. Whereas the guy getting the spot would be sloppy, hit the cushion or point, jaw balls, and basically not run as many balls on tougher pockets.

IMO,the whole thing about being the better player, besides consistency, is being more precise pocketing balls and playing position, so that pocketing balls is easier for you than the udder guy, even with tighter pockets

Lou Figueroa

 

[gulfportdoc]

Lou, I think you and John are almost talking about the same thing. RA's premise is that a good mover playing a better ball runner will benefit if the pockets are looser, because the mover can then run more balls, whereas the good ball runner is already a good shot maker.

You're saying that when giving weight, you want tighter pockets. So if the guy happens to be a good mover, then he's REALLY got an even better chance with looser pockets...

Doc
you say potato
I say pahtahta

 

[jrhendy]

Tight Pockets

Tight Pockets

The tables I am playing on are not loose by any means. They are 4 1/4" and they used to be 4".

I had often beat my opponent to the shot either to miss or just run a few balls on the old pockets. When the better shooter sees you cannot punish them when you get a shot, they become bolder, and shoot better all around.

The player who I mentioned in the original post has noticed several improvements in my game and we have talked about it. I am running balls better, playing better position and am much smoother with my stroke at the table.

I know most of it is all in my head, but that little change in pocket size has given me my confidence back and I hope it does not go away for a while.

 

[wincardona]

The tables I am playing on are not loose by any means. They are 4 1/4" and they used to be 4".

I had often beat my opponent to the shot either to miss or just run a few balls on the old pockets. When the better shooter sees you cannot punish them when you get a shot, they become bolder, and shoot better all around.

The player who I mentioned in the original post has noticed several improvements in my game and we have talked about it. I am running balls better, playing better position and am much smoother with my stroke at the table.

I know most of it is all in my head, but that little change in pocket size has given me my confidence back and I hope it does not go away for a while.

I agree, you're spot on with everything. Plus your opponent will feed off of your inability to perform and he will play his best speed. Dr. Bill

 

[SactownTom]

slight correction...

The pockets were changed from 3 7/8th inches to 4 1/4 inches.

All the tournament tables at Hard Times in Sacramento were less than 4 inches point to point up until last October. I measured them with Ernesto.

4 1/4 inches is tight.

The shelf is standard and it might have another 1/2 added next year....Maybe. :lol

Single shimmed pockets react differently than double shimmed. I would expect most of the knowledgeable players would agree.

Even my game has improved a little

 

[jrhendy]

slight correction...

The pockets were changed from 3 7/8th inches to 4 1/4 inches.

All the tournament tables at Hard Times in Sacramento were less than 4 inches point to point up until last October. I measured them with Ernesto.

4 1/4 inches is tight.

The shelf is standard and it might have another 1/2 added next year....Maybe. :lol

Single shimmed pockets react differently than double shimmed. I would expect most of the knowledgeable players would agree.

Even my game has improved a little

No wonder I dogged it so much on the old pockets lol.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Whether I am getting or giving, I prefer tight tables for one pocket, 4 1/4 or even tighter. Those buckets at the Derby are a bit of a joke because leaving them long does little to stop a good shot maker but on tight equipment they might have to do something other then fire at their hole.

 

[jrhendy]

Derby

Derby

Whether I am getting or giving, I prefer tight tables for one pocket, 4 1/4 or even tighter. Those buckets at the Derby are a bit of a joke because leaving them long does little to stop a good shot maker but on tight equipment they might have to do something other then fire at their hole.

I have to agree with you about the Derby. While the cut of the pockets on a Diamond make them play a little tighter than their actual size, players that are straight shooters and/or good bankers, are very competitive with players that outmove them. Earl, SVB and Smitty come to mind.

 

[bstroud]

I think you need all kinds of pocket size in the pool room.

Where I am playing now (Kolby's) in Phx has some tables with very small pockets and they are a real challenge to play a normal game on.

Lassiter always told me to practice on the loosest table you can to play on tight tables. I still think he is right.

Bill S.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, I think you and John are almost talking about the same thing. RA's premise is that a good mover playing a better ball runner will benefit if the pockets are looser, because the mover can then run more balls, whereas the good ball runner is already a good shot maker.

You're saying that when giving weight, you want tighter pockets. So if the guy happens to be a good mover, then he's REALLY got an even better chance with looser pockets...

Doc
you say potato
I say pahtahta

Yeah, you're probably right, Doc. I guess to me the whole thing about being a good mover goes hand-in-hand with being a good shooter IF you're a 1pocketeer to begin with. Otherwise, the distinction almost becomes one of a mover (a 1pocket player) vs a shooter (9ball player).

Lou Figueroa

 

[usblues]

Lassiter...

Lassiter...

....was funning you Bill....

 

[jrhendy]

Yeah, you're probably right, Doc. I guess to me the whole thing about being a good mover goes hand-in-hand with being a good shooter IF you're a 1pocketeer to begin with. Otherwise, the distinction almost becomes one of a mover (a 1pocket player) vs a shooter (9ball player).

Lou Figueroa

Don,t you think Lou, that one pocket has moved away from moving to more shooting as the game has gained popularity.

I started playing one pocket in the late 50's/early 60's and there were very good players who would not run more than three or four balls with a gun to their head. This was on the old bucket tables too.

I gave a guy 9/7 for quite a while until I figured out he played close to my speed. He was from Springfield, Mo. When I finally quit playing him and asked him why he matched up so snugly he said "My daddy taught me to get at least one ball the best of it and then one more in case they got lucky".

I think one of the reasons one pocket has grown in popularity, along with all the exposure it gets now, is the offensive game has grown tremendously and is much more appealing to watch. The shooters can learn a few basic moves and be hard to beat.

The finals at Derby City a few years back between Earl and SJB was all shooting and ball running and very entertaining to watch.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I think you need all kinds of pocket size in the pool room.

Where I am playing now (Kolby's) in Phx has some tables with very small pockets and they are a real challenge to play a normal game on.

Lassiter always told me to practice on the loosest table you can to play on tight tables. I still think he is right.

Bill S.

I got the exact same advice from Joe Procita.

Beard

 

[frmn]

I recently reread an old Johnny Holiday book from 1972. At the end of the book he was trying to get a standard rating for pocket sizes. He classified pockets 4 and seven eights as an A. Five inch would be a B and largewr for C and D. What would he think of 4 inchpockets? A lot has changed in forty years. Now people call 4 and a half pockets buckets.