DiLiberto vs. Hopkins 1991 Legends of One Pocket-Philadelphia Style

[wincardona]

For those who haven't looked at the thread Diliberto vs. Hopkins 1991 L.O.P. Philadelphia Style give it a shot.

Billy I.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Another factor that hasn't been discussed is that by drawing the cue ball and repositioning it in the stack your not going to get the same results with the 5 ball. You even said that you are playing all cue ball. So with that understanding the 6 ball wouldn't be in the position that it is now in. Making the escape easier for your opponent.

The results of Hopkins choice was predicated by the way he executed the shot, in terms of accuracy and speed. That also should be recognized.

Billy I.

It doesnt make anything easier because the 5 ball will be close to the pocket. Because off the angle its taking.

And he is in the trap already even if the 5 ball doest get in a ral good position. If it does then the player is in serious trouble.

And we might as well get this established wright away. WE no If I shoot the same shot. The balls will not be in the same position. If we shoot the same shot a 100 times the balls will be in a different position.

Just like if Hopkines shoots the same shot 50 times the ball and cue ball will be different.

And thats what I brought out at the beginning . That you should not but the cue ball were your opponent can get out off the trap. By leaving him by the side rail.

Unless he can make a ball and run out. If Allen shoots the shot a bunch off times. By leaving him by the rail he will let him out off the trap. Depending were the balls end up.

But in the stack he is locket up. Thats wht I would play the cue ball in the stack.

THe Down side too leaving the cue ball in the stack can work against you is if you make a ball the position off the cue ball works against you.

Because you cannot run out or have another shot. But you will still be ok. But its a big difference were you leave the cue ball. If you can make a ball.

That is what you have too figure out before you shoot the shhot. And were the cue ball goes.

If you are a 3 to one uncerdog too make a ball. And the balls are open were you can run 8 balls. Or he might get out off the trap then I would shoot the shot too run out.

And it also depends on who you are playing. And shoot Allens shot yourself . And you wont get the same result.

The balls on this shot worket real good for him. And were they had the cue ball on the side before they showed the shot. If the resulte would have been different .

Danny would have been out off the trap. But the other way the 5 ball can only make it harder for Danny. Because he is in a trap weather the five ball iis thier or not.

And people need to realize you stop your opponent from making any shots on the bottom half off the table by were you are leaving the cue ball.

 

[wincardona]

It doesnt make anything easier because the 5 ball will be close to the pocket. Because off the angle its taking.

And he is in the trap already even if the 5 ball doest get in a ral good position. If it does then the player is in serious trouble.

And we might as well get this established wright away. WE no If I shoot the same shot. The balls will not be in the same position. If we shoot the same shot a 100 times the balls will be in a different position.

Just like if Hopkines shoots the same shot 50 times the ball and cue ball will be different.

And thats what I brought out at the beginning . That you should not but the cue ball were your opponent can get out off the trap. By leaving him by the side rail.

Unless he can make a ball and run out. If Allen shoots the shot a bunch off times. By leaving him by the rail he will let him out off the trap. Depending were the balls end up.

But in the stack he is locket up. Thats wht I would play the cue ball in the stack.

THe Down side too leaving the cue ball in the stack can work against you is if you make a ball the position off the cue ball works against you.

Because you cannot run out or have another shot. But you will still be ok. But its a big difference were you leave the cue ball. If you can make a ball.

That is what you have too figure out before you shoot the shhot. And were the cue ball goes.

If you are a 3 to one uncerdog too make a ball. And the balls are open were you can run 8 balls. Or he might get out off the trap then I would shoot the shot too run out.

And it also depends on who you are playing. And shoot Allens shot yourself . And you wont get the same result.

The balls on this shot worket real good for him. And were they had the cue ball on the side before they showed the shot. If the resulte would have been different .

Danny would have been out off the trap. But the other way the 5 ball can only make it harder for Danny. Because he is in a trap weather the five ball iis thier or not.

And people need to realize you stop your opponent from making any shots on the bottom half off the table by were you are leaving the cue ball.

I do understand if we shoot certain shots 50 times we will get a different result 50 times, thats not the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make is on certain type of shots like the one Hopkins shot the way he shot it in terms of accuracy and speed, enabled him to get the results that he got. If he would of drawn the ball and hit it with a softer speed he couldn't develop as strong of a position as he did hitting it the way he chose too.

There are times when you have an option to hit certain shots with speed or at a softer speed, yes you give up a little when you choose how and what speed you hit certain shots with. But you also pick up benefits with one way opposed to another way. So you sacrifice sometimes control and position to develop a stronger position. It's up to us to evaluate and decide what is a fair trade off and what is not.

Hopkins decided that he would give up the benefit of repositioning the cue ball in the stack, with the trade off of the possibility of developing a stronger position. And yes there is that small percentage that he would make a ball and be in a better position to win the game from there.

This is what makes one pocket such an interesting game. There are times to gamble, and times to squeeze. And then there are times to play in between, and gamble that you're making the right decision. This holds true in all sports and games that we play, and that's what makes it worth playing. Using our own intelligence while at the job gambling that we make the right decisions.

What is right for some people will not be right for others, it's all about style conducive to your skills. There are grinders and there are explosive players, both know how to win, they just do it their way.

Just like Frank Sinatra...I did it my way

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

I've enjoyed debating with Artie and sharing my thoughts with whomever was interested, but I have been at it now for over 4 hrs. and need to take a break to go out to eat. Be back later, with Artie and some more opinions on how we differ. I'm sure of that. Later Artie.

Billy I.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I've enjoyed debating with Artie and sharing my thoughts with whomever was interested, but I have been at it now for over 4 hrs. and need to take a break to go out to eat. Be back later, with Artie and some more opinions on how we differ. I'm sure of that. Later Artie.

Billy I.

Enjoy your dinner. And its ok for you too have desert. You have earned it. I hope the therapy helps your back and mind.

And while having dinner dont be thinking about any pool shots. I dont want you throughing up.


And remember eat heathy. Its Nutrition that counts. And realy look at what you are eating. Dont just eat it.

No smoking or drinking. Its a new state law. If you are over the age off 67. THe penalty is you cannot play no more pool. And no more gambling.

If I would ever commontate with you. You would get wore out real fast. But you get a A for the day. I think this was one off your more productive times and you had some staying power today.

You were Focused pretty good. You sure this was realy you . because you shouwed more patience then usuale.

If you put this kind off energy and effort into playing pool. You will be a young billy. And it will even help you too play longer.

But you did good today. You stuck with it. And disnt get discouraged.

But treay yourself too a nice relaxing dinner. And let your worries go away.

This mite even be a record for you on her for 4 houers straight.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

When and if Dennis shows us Danny's counter move that should tell the story on what's available.

Billy I.

Bill, are you referring to Danny's reply to Hopkins? If so, here it is. He hit the 2 ball with the cueball otherwise it may have worked. He left Allen straight in on the 2.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

players see things differently at times, I like what Hopkins did with both the 5 ball and the cue ball. This shot was actually my preference after I looked harder at the situation. I liked this shot the way he played it for several reasons. First shooting the 5 ball two cushions using a center ball with a touch of inside offers you a better hit on the ball. Secondly you now have the ability to shoot it with the speed that will increase your chances of developing a stronger position. As you can see, the position he created with his shot should not be undervalued, the results speak for itself.

You must respect the choice that Hopkins made, he has always been regarded as one of the smartest one pocket players of our time. He weighed up the situation and he made his choice, and this also must be respected.

Billy I.

WE do not have to respect what a person says if we do not agree. On what is said. We need to respect the person but not what he says.

And I see you respect the shot he picket. That means you respect the shot. That dosent mean we respect the person. Because we respect his shot.

I belive the opposite I respect the person. Not the shot I dont agree with.

Only herring the real answers and reasons can bring out the correct shot.

And just because someone is a great player. They all make mistakes.

And I said the shot is a good shot and most people would shoot it.

The qouistion is were the best position is for the cue ball. And as Allen would see it and most players. I will bank the ball two rails and leave him behind the stack.

Maybe a little higher or lower on the rail. And that is as far as it goes . And thate were it stops.

For me that is not good enough. Thier are other qouistions I answer myself before I shoot the shot.

I can do the same thing all all the playerswould do. Shoot the shot and say he will be safe behind the stack off balls.

I like going further into the game. And the only way you can do that is by thinking . You cannot do that just by learning basick one pocket shots.

Thier is so much more too the game people have no Idea. But if they dont think that way. They will never see it.

Everyone is focust on the shot at hand. What too do on thier shot. The best shot or thing too do from that position.

Thats all people do. Or the are locket up completly. And say what do I do now. You learn by going back and finding the answer how you got in that position.

Or you lost all your money in the Casino. And you say what do I do now. I have no money too eat. The answer is you should have made a decision before you went broke.

When you had the money. And say if I loose all my money. I will put a hundred dollaers on the side so when I get broke I can have money too eat.

But people dont think off that ahead off time. And somr people say well I will keep playing because I mite still win. Or this is a lucky hundred dollar Bill.

And degenerat gamblers cannot qouite tell the are brock. Because the have no control too stop. And the only way the stop is when they are broke

If you have great ability. And a mind too realy think. You can take the game too a levele that has never been played or seen.

And we talk about this shot and that shot. And everyones opinion. and we learn about shots. And we choose the shoot we like .

Thier isway more too the game then just shooting what shot. And what shot too pick in the position we are in. And what shot to shoot thats easy. And we wont make a mistake by choosing the easer shot.

But once you realy learn the game and see how much moore thier is this is all basick. And debatable.

 

[wincardona]

Bill, are you referring to Danny's reply to Hopkins? If so, here it is. He hit the 2 ball with the cueball otherwise it may have worked. He left Allen straight in on the 2.

View attachment 2657

View attachment 2658

Dennis I thought that I posted on this before, but it didn't work.

One of the strengths of Hopkins shot was his ability to position the cue ball closely to the side rail. That offered Diliberto more problems than just the ball position that Hopkins created, it lessened Dilibertos ability to control the cue ball with his escape shot. Never underestimate the importance of leaving your opponent on balls or close to or frozen to the rail. Hopkins developed a strong position and left the cue ball positioned very closely to the rail creating problems for Danny. Had he left the cueball 3 or 4 inches from the rail Diliberto would of had a better chance of escaping because he would of had better control with the cue ball with his escape shot, in terms of speed and direction.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

WE do not have to respect what a person says if we do not agree. On what is said. We need to respect the person but not what he says.

And I see you respect the shot he picket. That means you respect the shot. That dosent mean we respect the person. Because we respect his shot.

I belive the opposite I respect the person. Not the shot I dont agree with.

Only herring the real answers and reasons can bring out the correct shot.

And just because someone is a great player. They all make mistakes.

And I said the shot is a good shot and most people would shoot it.

The qouistion is were the best position is for the cue ball. And as Allen would see it and most players. I will bank the ball two rails and leave him behind the stack.

Maybe a little higher or lower on the rail. And that is as far as it goes . And thate were it stops.

For me that is not good enough. Thier are other qouistions I answer myself before I shoot the shot.

I can do the same thing all all the playerswould do. Shoot the shot and say he will be safe behind the stack off balls.

I like going further into the game. And the only way you can do that is by thinking . You cannot do that just by learning basick one pocket shots.

Thier is so much more too the game people have no Idea. But if they dont think that way. They will never see it.

Everyone is focust on the shot at hand. What too do on thier shot. The best shot or thing too do from that position.

Thats all people do. Or the are locket up completly. And say what do I do now. You learn by going back and finding the answer how you got in that position.

Or you lost all your money in the Casino. And you say what do I do now. I have no money too eat. The answer is you should have made a decision before you went broke.

When you had the money. And say if I loose all my money. I will put a hundred dollaers on the side so when I get broke I can have money too eat.

But people dont think off that ahead off time. And somr people say well I will keep playing because I mite still win. Or this is a lucky hundred dollar Bill.

And degenerat gamblers cannot qouite tell the are brock. Because the have no control too stop. And the only way the stop is when they are broke

If you have great ability. And a mind too realy think. You can take the game too a levele that has never been played or seen.

And we talk about this shot and that shot. And everyones opinion. and we learn about shots. And we choose the shoot we like .

Thier isway more too the game then just shooting what shot. And what shot too pick in the position we are in. And what shot to shoot thats easy. And we wont make a mistake by choosing the easer shot.

But once you realy learn the game and see how much moore thier is this is all basick. And debatable.

Hello Artie i'm back today, but only for a few minutes, so with my short time I would like to elaborate on your comments.

First I would like to say that I have the utmost respect for Hopkins as a player. And I also respect the shot he chose because of his creditability as a player. Plus it was clearly an option that was popular among other players as well. So when I sum it up there are a lot of factors that would lead me to believe that his choice was a very good one. Not to mention the results he got.

You mentioned that it was not the best place for the cue ball. Well i'm not going to disagree with that, but there are times when an alternative shot could be more productive than a shot that offers you a better place for the cue ball. I'm sure he thought about his options and then decided what he liked best.

I do agree that positioning the cue ball in the stack is a good option, it was clearly one of the better ones, but I guess he wanted to take another route home. For other reasons.

Billy I.

 

[gulfportdoc]

I do agree that positioning the cue ball in the stack is a good option, it was clearly one of the better ones, but I guess he wanted to take another route home. For other reasons.

Well, in this particular case, if Hopkins had left the CB on the stack, Danny would probably have had a kick to the 2 ball. By leaving the CB on the rail, there was no kick available at all.

Doc

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

Hello Artie i'm back today, but only for a few minutes, so with my short time I would like to elaborate on your comments.

First I would like to say that I have the utmost respect for Hopkins as a player. And I also respect the shot he chose because of his creditability as a player. Plus it was clearly an option that was popular among other players as well. So when I sum it up there are a lot of factors that would lead me to believe that his choice was a very good one. Not to mention the results he got.

You mentioned that it was not the best place for the cue ball. Well i'm not going to disagree with that, but there are times when an alternative shot could be more productive than a shot that offers you a better place for the cue ball. I'm sure he thought about his options and then decided what he liked best.

I do agree that positioning the cue ball in the stack is a good option, it was clearly one of the better ones, but I guess he wanted to take another route home. For other reasons.

Billy I.

I agree thats why I said Allen Hopkines is a thinking player. Allen thinks on every shot before he shoots. I watched him win he playes. And he figuers out in his mind what he is going too do.

He doesnt just get up thier and shot. He is a thinking pool player. And he dhoosed good shot. And oercentage shots and he even plays to lock up the game more than thee other players.

All I can say he could have or could now because he still shots good and execuites good too a higher levely.

But If the player does not see that or no how to go about doing it. Then it will not happen.

But going through the whole game frome were it starts too thee end and ahow the positions off the resultes off every shot as you go along.

Will real teach people how too play. And showeing the picture after the shoot is crucial. And what the players did or could have done. That is the way too learn.

So Does that mean you have change off heart. And I get the pleasrure off commintating. With a pool hall off fame comantator.

And I have too admite you were very good yesterday. Your staying power was also good.

And you kepte your concentratuion longer then in a big money pool match when you were playing.

You were in a very good fram off mind. Thats a great attitude too have. It says a lot yoo me. Its not just hello and good by.

Your thoughts and feelings all showed. And you were under comple
te control.

You sure it was a back surgery?

 

[wincardona]

Well, in this particular case, if Hopkins had left the CB on the stack, Danny would probably have had a kick to the 2 ball. By leaving the CB on the rail, there was no kick available at all.

Doc

Art, if Hopkins would of played cue ball in the stack he would of given up the speed that he hit the shot with that allowed him to develop his position as a trade off for positioning the cue ball in the stack, so chances are that the 2 ball wouldn't of been there. Nonetheless that was a good observation of a possible strategic move. Sometimes positioning the cue ball against the rail is as good or better than positioning the cue ball in the stack. Plus like I mentioned Hopkins was able to hit the shot more accurately with speed to increase his chances of developing a stronger position. Plus there's always the small chance that he'll make a ball then he will be in a better position to do some damage.

I tried to explain to Artie that Hopkins traded off the benefit of positioning the cue ball in the stack to try to develop a stronger position. Artie disagreed with his choice. But there are benefits to both ways of thinking. Agree?

Billy I.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I am late to the party but what is new. I saw 3 shots, all with different benefits. My first and obvious is to cut the 2 and play the cue ball safe behind the stack, the other is 2 railing the 5 ball and keeping him in the stack. Another is soft kicking the 7 ball and freezing him into the stack, the stack is laying so nice for the shot and it is not very difficult to execute. If I am playing for the cash then its the 2 ball I am shooting, the 7 would be just fun to play.