What to do?

[Skin]

Oh, for cryin' out loud, Ghst! Guess you've fully recovered from your surgery and are back to your old self again. Glad to see it.

[Elephant Thick] Skin

 

[timdog24]

I really don't understand the rush to win in this situation.

You have already won the game all you need to do is wait.

If you shoot the 10 and make it all you have done is save time.

If you miss it and leave any kind of bank you may be looking at an even game.

Use your head. Play the percentages. Shoot in the 4 ball and wait.

Bill S.

Agree 100%. It's not time to go yet, especially frozen to the rail and with a 3 ball lead. Hit it just a little bad and he can get 2 (possibly 3) from here and now you're battling and lost some momentum.

I Like Billy's shot, making the 4 ball and coming 3 rails back down table.
7-5 lead, the way the balls are positioned, I like my chances.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Some of our members haven't been heard from in this thread yet - John H. John B. Keith, Bernie, Lou, etc. - still would like to hear what the rest of you guys would choose to do here...

- Ghost

 

[fred bentivegna]

Imho

Imho

IMHO, anybody who doesnt shoot the ten to try and win it right then, should commit suicide, pray for reincarnation, and hope to come back as a pool player with a pair.:sorry

Beard

San Jose Dickie feels the exact same way, but he is too scared to say so. He has been muzzled by the administration.

 

[bernie p]

Some of our members haven't been heard from in this thread yet - John H. John B. Keith, Bernie, Lou, etc. - still would like to hear what the rest of you guys would choose to do here...

- Ghost

Hi Ghost,

Been a little busy with work lately and miss the (ever increasing) verbal jousting here.

I (coincidentally) do 90% of my playing on a 4 1/4" diamond with deep shelves and so faced with this shot scenario and only needing one, and playing a good player hill hill.....that's an easy one for me.....

Make the 4 and hope he shoots the 10 ball bank at his hole....shooting that bank frozen on the end rail at that angle....I would be surprised if the got within 1/2 a diamond of his hole. If he banked the 10 and made it (I'm guessing a 10-15%'er)....I still feel like I'm 75% favorite with 2 balls remaining considering their location.

If I initially lagged the 10 at my hole (I'm realistically 25% to make the ball, at best) there is, I believe at least a 40% chance of not "hanging" the 10 on 4 1/4" pockets.

If I do leave a cross bank on the 10, I believe my win odds are now down to maybe 60% at best, and more importantly.....I've now just pumped up my opponent from being a substantial underdog to suddenly being back in the game.....without him having really "earned" it.

It's good to see the varying opinions of top players here....I guess thats why they make both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

Thanks.

P.S....if it's a standard 4 1/2" diamond pocket with new cloth (like at the Derby, for example).....I'm shooting the 10...all day long.

Bernie.

 

[sappo]

Some of our members haven't been heard from in this thread yet - John H. John B. Keith, Bernie, Lou, etc. - still would like to hear what the rest of you guys would choose to do here...

- Ghost

Ghost, there has never been any question in my mind on this situation from the start. Im slow rolling the 4 ball in and playing from there. I personally know MY GAME and my shooting ability and im a underdog on making the 10 ball. Im a strong favorite to win the game after making the 4 ball and that is the best shot for me. Keith

 

[tonygreen]

Bernie i loved 98.4 % of everything you said ... my percentages are so close to yours it's not worth mentioning.
I quote you saying "I believe at least a 40% chance of not "hanging" the 10 on 4 1/4" pockets."

My only misunderstanding of you here is ... were you saying 60% of the time your oppenent will have a bank at his hole?

Later you said "If he banked the 10 and made it (I'm guessing a 10-15%'er)....I still feel like I'm 75% favorite with 2 balls remaining considering their location."
I think a C class one pocket player is 50% at making of the majority of all short railers ...?

okay I correct myself here I loved 98.1 % of everything you said
Spot On Sir !

p.s. maybe if my opponent needs 2 extra balls for a total of 6 , i'd just give him the 4 ball ... instead of shooting at my hole needing 1 for the win.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Hi Ghost,

Been a little busy with work lately and miss the (ever increasing) verbal jousting here.

I (coincidentally) do 90% of my playing on a 4 1/4" diamond with deep shelves and so faced with this shot scenario and only needing one, and playing a good player hill hill.....that's an easy one for me.....

Make the 4 and hope he shoots the 10 ball bank at his hole....shooting that bank frozen on the end rail at that angle....I would be surprised if the got within 1/2 a diamond of his hole. If he banked the 10 and made it (I'm guessing a 10-15%'er)....I still feel like I'm 75% favorite with 2 balls remaining considering their location.

If I initially lagged the 10 at my hole (I'm realistically 25% to make the ball, at best) there is, I believe at least a 40% chance of not "hanging" the 10 on 4 1/4" pockets.

If I do leave a cross bank on the 10, I believe my win odds are now down to maybe 60% at best, and more importantly.....I've now just pumped up my opponent from being a substantial underdog to suddenly being back in the game.....without him having really "earned" it.

It's good to see the varying opinions of top players here....I guess thats why they make both chocolate and vanilla ice cream.

Thanks.

P.S....if it's a standard 4 1/2" diamond pocket with new cloth (like at the Derby, for example).....I'm shooting the 10...all day long.

Bernie.

Hi Bernie.....Yeah, like you said, I think it's been very interesting to see the good players on here varying on their choice here - the points made for shooting the 10 and for not shooting it are both strong...as I posted on here earlier today - unlike the firm believers of one choice or the other, I'm in the middle on the choice - I think Frank and Rod are in the middle with me, believing that either choice is a good choice and neither choice is a bad choice...

...like I said, I shot the 10 when I was in this spot, but I think the variables are very 'decision-tight' here...two examples being: If the table was wet with older cloth, I wouldn't have shot the 10 - I would have shot the 4....conversely, if I was 2" off the rail instead of on the rail, still playing on the dry table with the new cloth, then I'd always choose to shoot the 10.

Now as for you Bernie...

..., I think you're selling yourself short - or stalling a little....you say you think you're 25% at making the 10 - I know how straight you shoot - I think you're 33% at making it...and if I was betting on you in that game situation, I'd be wanting you to shoot the 10....Lenny, what do you say - would you want Bernie to shoot the 10 for your cheese?

- Ghost

 

[Fast Lenny]

Hi Bernie.....Yeah, like you said, I think it's been very interesting to see the good players on here varying on their choice here - the points made for shooting the 10 and for not shooting it are both strong...as I posted on here earlier today - unlike the firm believers of one choice or the other, I'm in the middle on the choice - I think Frank and Rod are in the middle with me, believing that either choice is a good choice and neither choice is a bad choice...

...like I said, I shot the 10 when I was in this spot, but I think the variables are very 'decision-tight' here...two examples being: If the table was wet with older cloth, I wouldn't have shot the 10 - I would have shot the 4....conversely, if I was 2" off the rail instead of on the rail, still playing on the dry table with the new cloth, then I'd always choose to shoot the 10.

Now as for you Bernie...

..., I think you're selling yourself short - or stalling a little....you say you think you're 25% at making the 10 - I know how straight you shoot - I think you're 33% at making it...and if I was betting on you in that game situation, I'd be wanting you to shoot the 10....Lenny, what do you say - would you want Bernie to shoot the 10 for your cheese?

- Ghost

It would all depend on pocket size as I said earlier, I like Bernie shooting the 10 on 4 1/2 inch pockets, but it all depends on how your playing that day whether you shoot or not on the 4 1/2 inch pockets and also your opponents ability level comes into play also. A weak opponent who your spotting or should be I would not feel too threatened and might roll the 10, if I miss they make the 4, if I hit it bad they get both, I still need 1 and they need 2 and I am the better player. Even if your the favorite though, are you better in the end game because I know many players who play better then me when all the balls are in play and some who when there are 2-4 balls left they are not in control.

No matter the pocket size you have to hit it pocket speed and if you miss you want the object ball to lay on the end rail so the 10 cannot be banked. On 4 1/4 or less then just make the 4 ball, we all know how good you have to hit the 10 to make it on a tight table and its in your mind when your thinking of shooting it and being frozen on the rail also, the shot itself is not very hard but being on the rail makes it twice as tough in my opinion along with the tight pocket.

Like I have said earlier in the smartest one pocket player thread, to me it takes someone who manages the percentages the best to be a smart one pocket player, this includes matching up and shot selection. One pocket is a huge game of percentages and how they affect your shot choices. Maybe I can take my video camera and record me and Bernie shooting this shot 5 times each and see how many times we make it or pocket speed it without leaving a bank on the 10, its a Diamond with 4 1/4 inch pockets, the only bad thing is the slight roll out so maybe we can shoot it on a 4 inch pocket Brunswick that rolls better just to see some results, I know there is no money on it so there is no real pressure other then what you guys will say about us when and if we miss the shot. I think 3 out of 5 shots will not leave a bank return or the 10 will be made even on 4 inch pockets with cue ball frozen to the rail.

 

[tonygreen]

Shoot it 10 times for us Lenny please.
You were saying 40% of the time u may leave a bank on the 10

 

[Fast Lenny]

Shoot it 10 times for us Lenny please.
You were saying 40% of the time u may leave a bank on the 10

I might say the percentage out of 10 of leaving a bank would be less than 40%, maybe around 30%, so 7 out of 10 there would be nothing there. If Bernie is up for it then me and him can shoot this, Bernie is one of the better players in my state, I am a B player so it will be interesting to see the percentages for both of us, Bernie might not leave the bank less than 30% if he has the speed down on the 10 tries.

 

[NH Steve]

Just curious if any the slow-rollers out there who tried this, ever failed to contact a rail because they slow-rolled just a wee bit too slow? That would be a DISASTER, so what it means to me is that the slow-rollers have to already make sure they are erring on the strong side, which in my experience means I leave a bank that much more often too. I would not be surprised to see a bank left on more than half of the missed attempts.

Now that I have said this, I think a big factor that would enter my decision in this situation would be, how comfortable with the table am I? If it is on one of my regular tables, I'd be a lot more likely to roll the 10 because I would be that much more confident in my speed.

 

[Fast Lenny]

Just curious if any the slow-rollers out there who tried this, ever failed to contact a rail because they slow-rolled just a wee bit too slow? That would be a DISASTER, so what it means to me is that the slow-rollers have to already make sure they are erring on the strong side, which in my experience means I leave a bank that much more often too. I would not be surprised to see a bank left on more than half of the missed attempts.

Now that I have said this, I think a big factor that would enter my decision in this situation would be, how comfortable with the table am I? If it is on one of my regular tables, I'd be a lot more likely to roll the 10 because I would be that much more confident in my speed.

I would do this test on the Diamond at Kolbys but the pocket where we would be shooting the 10 in does not roll perfect, the situation is tough enough without that coming into play. A true rolling 4 inch Brunswick will do the trick though.

 

[wincardona]

It would all depend on pocket size as I said earlier, I like Bernie shooting the 10 on 4 1/2 inch pockets, but it all depends on how your playing that day whether you shoot or not on the 4 1/2 inch pockets and also your opponents ability level comes into play also. A weak opponent who your spotting or should be I would not feel too threatened and might roll the 10, if I miss they make the 4, if I hit it bad they get both, I still need 1 and they need 2 and I am the better player. Even if your the favorite though, are you better in the end game because I know many players who play better then me when all the balls are in play and some who when there are 2-4 balls left they are not in control.

No matter the pocket size you have to hit it pocket speed and if you miss you want the object ball to lay on the end rail so the 10 cannot be banked. On 4 1/4 or less then just make the 4 ball, we all know how good you have to hit the 10 to make it on a tight table and its in your mind when your thinking of shooting it and being frozen on the rail also, the shot itself is not very hard but being on the rail makes it twice as tough in my opinion along with the tight pocket.

Like I have said earlier in the smartest one pocket player thread, to me it takes someone who manages the percentages the best to be a smart one pocket player, this includes matching up and shot selection. One pocket is a huge game of percentages and how they affect your shot choices. Maybe I can take my video camera and record me and Bernie shooting this shot 5 times each and see how many times we make it or pocket speed it without leaving a bank on the 10, its a Diamond with 4 1/4 inch pockets, the only bad thing is the slight roll out so maybe we can shoot it on a 4 inch pocket Brunswick that rolls better just to see some results, I know there is no money on it so there is no real pressure other then what you guys will say about us when and if we miss the shot. I think 3 out of 5 shots will not leave a bank return or the 10 will be made even on 4 inch pockets with cue ball frozen to the rail.

Lenny,your way of evaluating this shot choice or 'debate' is imo not right. (in terms of evaluating the right decision)

Let me start by saying that the 'make percentage' of this shot is lessened because of the demands of the shot. The demands of the shot are first, to hit it with the right speed which diminishes the accuracy of the shot, and secondly the shot should be hit in terms of accuracy 'favoring the long rail' (under cutting the shot) this way the preferred speed of the shot is better controlled, which also diminishes the accuracy of the shot. So in reality the shot is designed to miss, because of the demands of the shot. Now here's another factor which must be recognized. You only get one attempt at this shot when playing a live game, so you must execute this shot accurately in terms of both speed and accuracy. When you say that you want to hit this shot five or ten times and chart how well you do, in terms of accuracy and speed, you're not giving yourself the right information on what to do if confronted with a situation like this one, because of the misleading multiple attempts you took to establish your feel for this shot.

This shot for a top player is very challenging, considering the position of the cue ball, and the speed and accuracy that it takes to be successful , not to mention the 4-1/4 inch pocket

And for those who feel that even if they were in a wheel chair they would shoot this shot, and pick up their check, 'are delusional'.:lol

But like I said earlier on loose pocket tables I would shoot this shot, 'hands down' On loose pockets your focus should be to pocket the ball. as opposed to hitting it with the defensive speed like you should on 4-1/4" pockets. Plus on loose pockets the pocket will eat up the ball and 'kill the ball' resulting in either making the ball, or hanging it.

Now that's a little tip on table management, and for those who feel that Reyes table management is poor??????? :frus:sorry

Billy I

 

[bstroud]

As usual Billy I. seems to have the correct solution.

When did all this tight pocket thing happen?

I guess it was when I was not playing any pool.

Now that I have spent time with tight pockets I have to say I still dislike them.

They seems better for the weaker player.

Bill S.

 

[jrhendy]

As usual Billy I. seems to have the correct solution.

When did all this tight pocket thing happen?

I guess it was when I was not playing any pool.

Now that I have spent time with tight pockets I have to say I still dislike them.

They seems better for the weaker player.

Bill S.

Most of the old time guys dislike the smaller pockets. I know RA doesn't like them because when he does play it does not suit his style of play of moving multiple balls to his hole and taking chances.

The two main pool rooms I play at have Gold Crowns with 4" pockets. I am used to them now and it was the same thing with the measles cue ball. I hated this cue ball at first but had to adapt because they use them everywhere now. Now if I play with a red circle I am all over the place with it because IMO it plays a lot livlier than the measles.

Old guys hate change but we have to change or quit playing and I am not going to do that yet.

You are just getting started again Bill, but with your practice regimen and desire to be a top player again, you have a good chance to get there. It is work at our age to keep the game up and compete with the good young players. I played in a little 9 ball tournament yesterday. My break kills me. If I had a decent break I would have a chance to beat them, but at the end of the day I just can't beat the local top dogs who crush the break.

 

[bstroud]

John,

Small pockets seem to in in vogue right now.

I thought Artie invented them?

Small pockets seem to be a hurtle to overcome but if Scott and Alex can run balls on them so can I.

I really don't see much difference in the red circle and the Measles ball now.
I also have the newest Aramith tournament set with yet another logo cue ball. Haven't tried it yet.

Too many choices.

Bill S.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

IMHO, anybody who doesnt shoot the ten to try and win it right then, should commit suicide, pray for reincarnation, and hope to come back as a pool player with a pair.:sorry

Beard

Dear Lasagna Breath,

Though I strongly agree with the sentiment you may want to reverse the order or you could find yourself shit out of luck.

RBL

 

[Skin]

Dear Lasagna Breath,

Though I strongly agree with the sentiment you may want to reverse the order or you could find yourself shit out of luck.

RBL

I almost commented yesterday how eerily similar that was to when you said, rather than playing in many-player golf game, you'd just shoot yourself in the head and lay your wallet on the table, and then go home. But I didn't want to get anything started. :heh

Skin

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

As usual Billy I. seems to have the correct solution.

When did all this tight pocket thing happen?

I guess it was when I was not playing any pool.

Now that I have spent time with tight pockets I have to say I still dislike them.

They seems better for the weaker player.
Bill S.

It seems to me there was great disagreement on this point in the thread where it was debated ad nauseum, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Dennis