foul ruling

[victhestick2]

My opponent has his game winning ball deep in his pocket. I attempt to play his ball and jump the cue off the table so as to spot his ball back up. The cue double kissess the hanging ball and rolls along the top of the rail where it hits a piece of chalk and falls back onto the playing surface. Does my opponents ball spot back up because I committed a foul?

Thanks

 

[wgcp]

Hate to say this... but if the cue ball rests on the playing surface... reguardless of how it got back there... it is not a foul...

B

 

[androd]

Hate to say this... but if the cue ball rests on the playing surface... reguardless of how it got back there... it is not a foul...

B

Maybe not !
Wait for the rules guys.
Rod.

 

[8andout]

its a foul

its a foul

i strongly disagree- if the ball touches anything other than the playing surface it is a foul.... i think.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

My opponent has his game winning ball deep in his pocket. I attempt to play his ball and jump the cue off the table so as to spot his ball back up. The cue double kissess the hanging ball and rolls along the top of the rail where it hits a piece of chalk and falls back onto the playing surface. Does my opponents ball spot back up because I committed a foul?

Thanks

VTS,

When shooting an opponents game ball there are two accepted methods of fouling and spotting his ball up. One is to follow it in the pocket with the cueball, the second way is to jump the cueball off the table after pocketing his ball. You did neither and lose this game.

On any other of his balls (or any other shot) it would be a foul because the cueball hit the chalk before returning to the table. His ball would spot up along with one of your own.

The difference is whether it was the game ball or not.

Dennis

 

[wgcp]

Dennis

Dennis

Thanks, I lost 50 on that same thing last year...

 

[gulfportdoc]

This is a very interesting scenario, and I've never before seen it come up, or have seen it addressed. It's true that a pocketed ball can be spotted up only after a pocket scratch, or because of the CB having been driven off the table.

However, what constitutes the CB "driven off the table" is evidently the distinction, according to the WPA rules (to which our rules defer):

8.5 Driven off the Table
A ball is considered driven off the table if it comes to rest other than on the playing surface but is not pocketed. A ball is also considered driven off the table if it would have been driven off the table except for striking an object such as a light fixture, piece of chalk or a player which causes it to return to the table.
A ball that contacts the top of the rail is not considered to have been driven off the table if it returns to the playing surface or enters a pocket.

In this particular case, if the CB was judged to have been kept from falling off the table by bumping the piece of chalk, then the CB would be considered to have left the table. If it didn't prevent it from doing so, then it's not even a foul.

So if the chalk prevented it from going off the table, then the opponent's ball would be spotted, along with one of the shooter's, and the opponent would have BIH in the kitchen.

How'd you like to be the referee in this match?

Doc

 

[usblues]

Like the man....

Like the man....

.....sez,once the ball leaves the table its a foul and will be spotted.If the CB happens to be on the spot the spotted ball cannot freeze to said ball.Now if 5 guys have money on the game and their carrying and drinking all rules are subject to appeal......

 

[tylerdurden]

I like to give independent opinions, so I haven't read what others said yet, but here is my take....

- I personally feel it is a foul when the cb hits the chalk. This should be ball in hand in the kitchen; we just don't know what would have happened if it didn't hit the chalk, and it must be a foul ball in hand.

Confusingly however, I personally feel strongly that since the cb didn't leave the playing surface (the true objective of that shot), the ball doesn't spot, no ball in hand, and the game is over. The reason is that the benefit of the doubt has to go to the non fouler, and the shooter effectively didn't accomplish his objective.

I don't think our rules are the best, and if I was a TD i'd feel comfortable doing the above,even though the statements conflict with one another. I don't think it is right to reward infringements in ambiguous situations. If the rules were more A+ caliber, like say in golf, i'd be much more inclined to follow the rules to the letter as a TD.

 

[tylerdurden]

VTS,

When shooting an opponents game ball there are two accepted methods of fouling and spotting his ball up. One is to follow it in the pocket with the cueball, the second way is to jump the cueball off the table after pocketing his ball. You did neither and lose this game.

On any other of his balls (or any other shot) it would be a foul because the cueball hit the chalk before returning to the table. His ball would spot up along with one of your own.

The difference is whether it was the game ball or not.

Dennis

As usual, you are right on, and stated much more eloquently that I did. I totally agree. That is a one pocket shot, he didn't get it done. Loss of game. Technically, it may be a little more confusing, but if I was TD i'd have no trouble calling the game then and there. I'd feel very uncomfortable doing anything else, despite what the rules may say.

 

[vapros]

I would not want to have to call this one, but it seems to me the shot was over when the cue ball touched the chalk. Since it was not on the playing surface at that moment, it has jumped the table. The referee should not have to decide which way it would have fallen, if at all, especially if he didn't see it.

It's two strokes for improving your lie.

 

[victhestick2]

Foul Ruling

Foul Ruling

Some thoughts:

If I play a ball in my pocket and foul by rolling the cue along the rail where it hits the chalk and falls back onto the table: Its a foul and I spot up two balls.

If I pocket the winning ball in your pocket while attempting to jump the table, and the cue goes around the table three rails and scratches: Its a foul and two balls are spotted up.

If Larry Nevel knocks an object ball off the table and pockets a ball in your pocket, I believe that two balls would be spotted up.

Some responders split their opinion depending upon whether it was the game winning ball or not. I do not understand.

In the actual game I offered to allow the ball and end the game. My opponent, who has many more years of one pocket experience, said he had never seen that happen before and insisted that the ball be spotted. We are friends and were playing for low stakes.

I really appreciate your responses.

Thanks:

 

[petie]

This situation is the reason that some rules say you can't call a foul on yourself. We have talked about this on other threads. It would benefit the shooter/fouler to call a foul here. I think another twist to this is to ask whether having called a foul by a referee, would the remedy be for the incoming player to take ball in hand in the kitchen or play the ball where it rests as in all other one pocket fouls.

 

[tylerdurden]

Some responders split their opinion depending upon whether it was the game winning ball or not. I do not understand.

I tried to explain it in my post.

One way to look at it is that a TD comes to the table, the players stipulate that "the winning ball was made and this is the layout", with the cb still on the table. That alone is very strong "evidence" for loss of game. The guy sitting in the chair did nothing wrong, the cb is on the table, and his winning ball got pocketed. Take it to court and see what happens And, this is all stipulating the guy in the chair acknowledges the foul; what if he says he didn't really see the cb hit anything (which is perfectly within his right to say)?? This actually gets into a whole deeper issue about whether a player sitting in the chair should be forced to share his observations. Think about it, the TD is asking "did he foul or not" and if he says he fouled that HURTS him - that's ridiculous, right? Anyway, that is a whole other thread.

Stipulating the chair sitter does acknowledge the hit chalk, you are saying that a blunder by the shooter (hitting something not of a pool table), should save him and let him continue playing the game. Blunders should not be rewarded. You have to ask yourself why a "mistake" by the shooter should allow him to keep alive in the game. Shouldn't the rules penalize mistakes? That is why many times I say I don't care what the rules say, this is what i'd rule. Anyway, I hope that helps you understand at least why I personally am saying loss of game

 

[NH Steve]

It used to be that if a ball rolled around on the top of the cushions and then returned to the table it was not a foul unless it touched something -- but if it touched a chalk, light fixture, bridges, etc, it was a foul. I notice the new rule (8.5) seems a little more ambiguous... but if you put rule 8.5 together with 6.6 I guess it is still clearly a foul -- because it touched the chalk, not because it hopped and rolled along the rail top.

8.5 Driven off the Table
A ball is considered driven off the table if it comes to rest other than on the playing surface but is not pocketed. A ball is also considered driven off the table if it would have been driven off the table except for striking an object such as a light fixture, piece of chalk or a player which causes it to return to the table.
A ball that contacts the top of the rail is not considered to have been driven off the table if it returns to the playing surface or enters a pocket.

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

 

[NH Steve]

Ps

Ps

I would say game over, since the cue ball was not successfully jumped all the way off the table, and opponent's OB's are not spotted except for two conditions (cue ball jumped off the table or cue ball pocket scratching).

Just for the sake of argument, you might even have a worse quandry if the cue ball had bumped the chalk or bridge or something and still ended up fully jumped off the table. Then you do have a fully jumped cue ball, but you also have the kind of foul that calls for not re-spotting the opponent's ball.

My ruling there would be game over also. You cannot be penalized for two fouls on one shot, so the most serious foul takes precedence. I would say your cue ball contacting the chalk or other object is the most serious foul in that case.

 

[gulfportdoc]

The WPA rules distinction is this: A piece of chalk is not considered part of the table, whereas the rails are. Say the CB had rolled on the rail, then deflected back onto the table by bouncing off someone's cell phone left on the rail. Since it's not part of the table, the CB would have been considered to have been driven off the table. It would be the same if the CB had hit the light fixture, a coke machine, or a spectator before bouncing back onto the table.

Doc

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Some thoughts:

If I play a ball in my pocket and foul by rolling the cue along the rail where it hits the chalk and falls back onto the table: Its a foul and I spot up two balls.
This is correct.


If I pocket the winning ball in your pocket while attempting to jump the table, and the cue goes around the table three rails and scratches: Its a foul and two balls are spotted up.This is correct.

If Larry Nevel knocks an object ball off the table and pockets a ball in your pocket, I believe that two balls would be spotted up.If it's your game ball that he made in your pocket, you win, game over.

Most gambling rules are not played "object balls" off the table are a foul so if this happened on any other ball during the game you would keep the ball and the one that left the table would be spotted.

If playing "object balls" off the table are fouls then you would be almost correct. The one off the table spots, the one he made for you spots and he owes one for a foul in that situation, 3 balls would spot if he has one.

Some responders split their opinion depending upon whether it was the game winning ball or not. I do not understand.If it's game ball there are only two acceptable methods of pocketing the ball and fouling as stated previously. "Game ball" differentiates it, some didn't note that distinction.

In the actual game I offered to allow the ball and end the game. My opponent, who has many more years of one pocket experience, said he had never seen that happen before and insisted that the ball be spotted. We are friends and were playing for low stakes.

I really appreciate your responses.

Thanks:

VTS,

People play differently around the country, some play object balls off the table are fouls and some don't. This rule mostly came from tournaments and filtered over to gambling rules for some.

No matter which rule you are playing by there are only two ways to foul and pocket an opponents game ball and have it spot back up.

Dennis

 

[petie]

The WPA rules distinction is this: A piece of chalk is not considered part of the table, whereas the rails are. Say the CB had rolled on the rail, then deflected back onto the table by bouncing off someone's cell phone left on the rail. Since it's not part of the table, the CB would have been considered to have been driven off the table. It would be the same if the CB had hit the light fixture, a coke machine, or a spectator before bouncing back onto the table.

Doc

Doc, in other words its a foul and even if it disadvantages the player who did not commit it, it must be considered a foul. Now, after spotting the pocketed ball and one from the fouling player, do you pick up the cue ball and place it in the kitchen or play it where it lays.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Doc, in other words its a foul and even if it disadvantages the player who did not commit it, it must be considered a foul. Now, after spotting the pocketed ball and one from the fouling player, do you pick up the cue ball and place it in the kitchen or play it where it lays.

If the CB were to be deemed "driven off the table" (by virtue of its being saved that fate only by having been deflected off a piece of chalk), then the CB would be played BIH in the Kitchen.

If the CB rolled onto the rail, and back onto the surface without contacting a piece of chalk (or any other foreign object), then it wouldn't be any kind of foul at all, so the CB would obviously play from where it came to rest.

This is where it gets tricky. If the CB clipped the chalk, but it was deemed that the chalk contact would NOT have saved the ball from rolling off the table entirely, then it would just be considered a regular foul, because the CB contacted a foreign object. In that case the CB would play from it's position, and the offending player would owe a ball.

Most of us will play pool for our entire lives without ever seeing this particular situation come up. But at least there is a rule to cover it, especially since there are several hairs to be split...

Doc