banking the ball backwards

[John Brumback]

You're correct in what you say when you say that the cue ball doesn't know how short or long your stroke was that preceded the hit. Nor does it know if you tighten up your back hand to execute certain shots to get the results you need, however, you use the follow through and the "check stroke" along with the tightening of the back hand not so much to dictate what is needed to make things happen, but to use as a technique to develop the understanding with..how to make it happen. Imo.

Dr. Bill

What??:lol JK I think I see what you are saying. I think the part about this that's
a little confusing to some is they are mistaking the stroke ( as in angle of stroke or speed of the stroke or both ) to the "hit" and come on,you only get one try to "hit" the cue ball. And you can only "hit" the cue ball one time:lol.If someone's doing something funny to that cue ball,I will call foul.
See where I'm going with this? JB

IMO, the angle that the cue goes through the cball ( high ,low,straight,level,what else is there?, has alot to do with a pool shot but that's about it as far as doing anything to the cball with "one" hit.again...IMO

 

[John Brumback]

Different strokes, hmmm? How could I have been so dumb all these years? The fact that I was such a "good" shotmaker must have been what kept me going all those years.


Incidentally, I never turned down protection when I played on the South Side, but I went in and out of those joints solo, many, many times.

When I attended Wilson Jr College, it was in the middle of the South Side, I used to take my lunch breaks wandering up and down the streets walking into strange pool rooms. In those days there was a poolroom on every corner and one in the middle of the block.

Beard

Just wondering,Is it better now or worse? Would you or do you still go over to that part of town? JB

 

[NH Steve]

I'm not one of the science guys but I have listened in on enough of their discussions -- guys like Bob Jewett and Ron Shepard -- to know that the CB does not know or care about your follow through (or grip). The contact time between the cue tip and cue ball is a few milli-seconds. You could conduct the Boston Philharmonic with your follow through, but the CB would not care. It is *long* gone by the time you follow through.

Lou Figueroa

When I interviewed 'Patch Eye' he talked about Greenleaf as the player that he was most impressed with.

From my interview with Patch Eye:

The way he stroked that ball was so graceful. He walked around the ball as if he were an adagio dancer. Have you ever seen an adagio dancer?

1P: I don’t know what that is.
JB: You don’t know what an adagio is?

1P: Maybe if you spell it.
JB: Have you ever seen ballet?

1P: A couple of times maybe, a long time ago.
JB: Well, the males in the ballet have these young ladies twirling through the air and they are adagio dancers. Have you ever seen how graceful they move? Not just strength, but grace. The fluctuation of the muscles and their movements; it’s like symphony and harmony.

1P: So Greenleaf had that kind of grace?
JB: Yes, he did. And he seemed to be the kind of player that was going to do something eventually to excite the audience.

1P: Like Efren does?
JB: Now, at Mercantile Hall Bennie Allen was playing at a World Championship Tournament; the only time I would ever see Ralph Greenleaf play would be playing a black guy would be at Mercantile Hall, which is on North Broad Street in Philadelphia. The audience was over 90% black. Greenleaf would always set the balls up, which is referred to as ‘setting a table’. In other words, he would see where a good shot was, he would select a great shot after he broke the balls but he always wanted a ball right there by that side pocket so when he shot that side pocket it would stay right there in position for the break shot. Not just straight but where he can go down and get close, because it is different playing on a 5 x 10 than on a 4 ½ x 9. But it seemed to me that one time he deliberately played out of line for a break shot. Instead of the cue ball going directly into the pack the cue ball had to come over and hit the side rail but there wasn’t a very acute angle there where the ball was going to hit the rail and bounce back over into the stack. It was an off angle. He hit that ball in that pocket, the cue ball hit the rail, came out to the center of the table and charged straight down to the stack. It looped! It looped. Five minutes it took for him to be able to shoot again because of the applause and the laughing and the shouting by that black audience. They loved it! His facial expression expressed appreciation that they loved it.

...and that is why Ralph Greenleaf got so much action on his cue ball, and I cannot

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,please don't get me started on that ole myth about gripping the cue tight or loose:lol Wi'll have to shoot that one down too!!:lol

PS: you could conduct "the Boston Philharmonic with your follow through" and the cball wouldn't care. That's funny as hell,I don't care who you are.:lol

Seems to me.. this kinda of stuff should be common sense. Like I asked,Is a hit a hit?Or is it not? JB who is still tryin to learn a few things about pool.I might be missing out on something that I did not know after all these years:frus:lol

lol. John, don't tell Freddy. He's convinced you need certain grips to get particular action on the CB. At his age, no telling what kind of conniptions he'd go into if he learned, this late in life, that he was wrong on one of his core tenets.

Lou Figueroa

 

[John Brumback]

When I interviewed 'Patch Eye' he talked about Greenleaf as the player that he was most impressed with.

From my interview with Patch Eye:...and that is why Ralph Greenleaf got so much action on his cue ball, and I cannot

I have to wonder If .............. he hit the cball or stroked the cball????:lol JB

 

[lfigueroa]

You're correct in what you say when you say that the cue ball doesn't know how short or long your stroke was that preceded the hit. Nor does it know if you tighten up your back hand to execute certain shots to get the results you need, however, you use the follow through and the "check stroke" along with the tightening of the back hand not so much to dictate what is needed to make things happen, but to use as a technique to develop the understanding with..how to make it happen. Imo.

Dr. Bill

Doctor, I have long held that every player creates his own reality when it comes to pool. And, over the years, in the course of constructing a personal reality concerning the game, players establish certain "principles" that may or may not be proven out by the science. But, they work for the player anyways, just not for the reasons the player believes.

IOW, say for instance I note somewhere along the line that I get better action on the CB with a longer follow through and I says to myself, "Self, a longer follow through puts more action on the CB." But, what the science would turn out to explain is that it's not the follow through, it's just quicker cue motion and the player is putting more RPMs on the ball because of that increase in cue tip speed, (which could be generated with less follow through). All that's going on is that the player is creating quicker tip speed but believes it's the follow through.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

When I interviewed 'Patch Eye' he talked about Greenleaf as the player that he was most impressed with.

From my interview with Patch Eye:...and that is why Ralph Greenleaf got so much action on his cue ball, and I cannot

Cool story, but I am missing the part that explains why RG got so much action on the ball.

FWIW, Mosconi was also very graceful at the table.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mr3cushion]

When I interviewed 'Patch Eye' he talked about Greenleaf as the player that he was most impressed with.

From my interview with Patch Eye:...and that is why Ralph Greenleaf got so much action on his cue ball, and I cannot

Steve; I think they may have got the,"wrong" fish in their net!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[John Brumback]

Doctor, I have long held that every player creates his own reality when it comes to pool. And, over the years, in the course of constructing a personal reality concerning the game, players establish certain "principles" that may or may not be proven out by the science. But, they work for the player anyways, just not for the reasons the player believes.

IOW, say for instance I note somewhere along the line that I get better action on the CB with a longer follow through and I says to myself, "Self, a longer follow through puts more action on the CB." But, what the science would turn out to explain is that it's not the follow through, it's just quicker cue motion and the player is putting more RPMs on the ball because of that increase in cue tip speed, (which could be generated with less follow through). All that's going on is that the player is creating quicker tip speed but believes it's the follow through.

Lou Figueroa

You know what?.. I wanted to write that same thing somehow but couldn't figure out how to put it in words ( i aint very good at writin),so If you don't mind....thank you!!!!!! John B.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Just wondering,Is it better now or worse? Would you or do you still go over to that part of town? JB

Worse. Much worse. The bosses in the old days were adults. I was in tight with all the murderers, Gang bosses and king pins. They are now all dead or in jail. The neighborhoods today are run by what they call "shorties." Kids. Teenagers. Many even younger than teenagers. They broke up all the big gangs and what is left is a gang on every street corner.

I probably could go over there and play, but I choose not to.

Beard

 

[John Brumback]

Worse. Much worse. The bosses in the old days were adults. I was in tight with all the murderers, Gang bosses and king pins. They are now all dead or in jail. The neighborhoods today are run by what they call "shorties." Kids. Teenagers. Many even younger than teenagers. They broke up all the big gangs and what is left is a gang on every street corner.

I probably could go over there and play, but I choose not to.

Beard

That's what I was afraid you were going to say,not that i was thinking about going over there anyways Guess them ole young gangs are everwhere now. JB

PS: the guy I was with that weekend at Chris's went over there and drove around late at night while I was sleeping in the room and he said it looked just like what you would see on tv. You know the big fat man from cincy that has all the samboties,sp I can't think of his name right now.Loved bankpool,and played ok.

 

[NH Steve]

Doctor, I have long held that every player creates his own reality when it comes to pool. And, over the years, in the course of constructing a personal reality concerning the game, players establish certain "principles" that may or may not be proven out by the science. But, they work for the player anyways, just not for the reasons the player believes.

IOW, say for instance I note somewhere along the line that I get better action on the CB with a longer follow through and I says to myself, "Self, a longer follow through puts more action on the CB." But, what the science would turn out to explain is that it's not the follow through, it's just quicker cue motion and the player is putting more RPMs on the ball because of that increase in cue tip speed, (which could be generated with less follow through). All that's going on is that the player is creating quicker tip speed but believes it's the follow through.

Lou Figueroa

Yeah, but what if the long follow through helps them create that quicker tip speed? That's where you lose me...

Players like Greenleaf (who I never saw -- I just grabbed that quote because it mentioned "symphony"), and artistic billiard players like Mazin Shooni (who I have seen lots of), get so much more action on the cue ball than most players. I don't see how you can credit it just to the millisecond of contact -- because without the approach, the flex and the follow through (conducting the symphony if you will), they don't get that amazing microcosm of contact that gets the results that they do, especially on powerful shots. Who cares on a routine roll shot...that's not what we are talking about here.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yeah, but what if the long follow through helps them create that quicker tip speed? That's where you lose me...

Players like Greenleaf (who I never saw -- I just grabbed that quote because it mentioned "symphony"), and artistic billiard players like Mazin Shooni (who I have seen lots of), get so much more action on the cue ball than most players. I don't see how you can credit it just to the millisecond of contact -- because without the approach, the flex and the follow through (conducting the symphony if you will), they don't get that amazing microcosm of contact that gets the results that they do, especially on powerful shots. Who cares on a routine roll shot...that's not what we are talking about here.

Every player has his own reality when it comes to pool. So, perhaps, Greenleaf used a long follow through. (BTW, that is unlikely because, at least in the video of him that I've seen, he had a huge honkin' swarp to his stroke.) Look what Allen Hopkins does. He creates all kinds of action on the ball with a short little punch stroke.

All that matter is what happens in those micro seconds the cue tip is in contact with the CB. If the CB is hit at the right spot, at the right speed, it's going to do the same thing regardless of whether a long Sigel-like stroke was used, or a shorter Varner-like stroke was used.

Lou Figueroa

 

[mr3cushion]

Yeah, but what if the long follow through helps them create that quicker tip speed? That's where you lose me...

Players like Greenleaf (who I never saw -- I just grabbed that quote because it mentioned "symphony"), and artistic billiard players like Mazin Shooni (who I have seen lots of), get so much more action on the cue ball than most players. I don't see how you can credit it just to the millisecond of contact -- because without the approach, the flex and the follow through (conducting the symphony if you will), they don't get that amazing microcosm of contact that gets the results that they do, especially on powerful shots. Who cares on a routine roll shot...that's not what we are talking about here.

Steve; years ago, an Old hustler told me, "Kid, NEVER wake up the DEAD." Some other ways to put it might be, "There are Wolfs and then there are Sheep." Or, maybe, "There's always going to be PLAYERS and shortstops." The two hardly ever agree!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[mr3cushion]

Just to change it up for a moment, Can Wang just beat SVB, 10-2 in the Ultimate 10 Ball!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[lfigueroa]

Steve; years ago, an Old hustler told me, "Kid, NEVER wake up the DEAD." Some other ways to put it might be, "There are Wolfs and then there are Sheep." Or, maybe, "There's always going to be PLAYERS and shortstops." The two hardly ever agree!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

And then there's the clowns. They seem to be around too.

Lou Figueroa
never forget
the clowns

 

[mr3cushion]

And then there's the clowns. They seem to be around too.

Lou Figueroa
never forget
the clowns

Like I said, "SHORTSTOP!" :lol:lol:lol

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[lfigueroa]

Like I said, "SHORTSTOP!" :lol:lol:lol

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

And like I said, "Clown."

Lou Figueroa
happy to even be
considered a "shortstop"
doubts the "clown"
feels the same way

 

[NH Steve]

Every player has his own reality when it comes to pool. So, perhaps, Greenleaf used a long follow through. (BTW, that is unlikely because, at least in the video of him that I've seen, he had a huge honkin' swarp to his stroke.) Look what Allen Hopkins does. He creates all kinds of action on the ball with a short little punch stroke.

All that matter is what happens in those micro seconds the cue tip is in contact with the CB. If the CB is hit at the right spot, at the right speed, it's going to do the same thing regardless of whether a long Sigel-like stroke was used, or a shorter Varner-like stroke was used.

Lou Figueroa

I think of Hopkins style as controlled -- I don't think of him as so well known for his powerful cue ball action. like say Mike Massey or Larry Nevel, for example. I still don't see how you can isolate the contact .001% of a player's stroke and say it is not influenced by the other 99.9% of their stroke -- it's how they do it, it's not just their reality -- it's the cue ball's action reality demonstrated in their results

 

[lfigueroa]

I think of Hopkins style as controlled -- I don't think of him as so well known for his powerful cue ball action. like say Mike Massey or Larry Nevel, for example. I still don't see how you can isolate the contact .001% of a player's stroke and say it is not influenced by the other 99.9% of their stroke -- it's how they do it, it's not just their reality -- it's the cue ball's action reality demonstrated in their results

What can I say? Like I said, I'm not a science guy. If you want, I'll say "Beetlejuice" three times and try and get one of them here. But the bottom line is that the science says it's not the follow through, or the grip, or any other voodoo.

Lou Figueroa