A couple of words about the match

[fred bentivegna]

In my opinion the bank is the better selection. Although the spot shot looks very inviting, many things could go wrong with it. For one you have to shoot soft and more than likely you will leave a bank with a good chance for position on the last ball.
If you shoot it with draw it now becomes even more difficult for the situation you're in. If you miss it shooting it with draw who knows how they will wind up. I like what he did. Your opponent has to earn it if you don't make the bank.

You and I and John H. are in the minority when it comes to that shot, Frank -- and I thank God for that. Heroes win medals, but most of them come posthumously.

Beard

 

[Svking]

John the rails on the table you played on are black diamond rails . Diamond Billiards puts those rails on there bar tables . But on the 9 foot diamond tables they install a higher grade rail made in Germany called Artemis . But regardless of the rails the front table at red shoes plays great .

 

[frmn]

The words I have come to live by were spoken by Theodore Roosevelt in 1910.
"it is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, and comes short again and again (but)... who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst if he fails, at least fail while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

You strove greatly for a worthy cause care not for the timid souls.

 

[frmn]

Sorry didn't read all the threads. Didn't see Cowboys Quote of this already. I am glad to see that these words have found meaning for others.

 

[OldSchool]

I too watched most of this match, and I would also like to congratulate both players on their excellent play and thank them for providing this match to all of us. It was a gut wrenching, closely fought battle to watch, and speaking as someone who has been playing himself, and also watching high calibre one pocket for many decades, it was evident to me that these two one pocket veterans know the game about as thoroughly as it can be known. I also very much liked the fact that I know I was watching two gentleman gamblers at work, and that is refreshing to me in this day and age. And I'll end by giving you two fellas the ultimate compliment by saying that imo this match of yours was as exciting, entertaining, and educating to watch, as was the famous Danny D. vs. Ronnie Allen match from 20 some years ago.

Old School

 

[jtompilot]

In my opinion the bank is the better selection. Although the spot shot looks very inviting, many things could go wrong with it. For one you have to shoot soft and more than likely you will leave a bank with a good chance for position on the last ball.
If you shoot it with draw it now becomes even more difficult for the situation you're in. If you miss it shooting it with draw who knows how they will wind up. I like what he did. Your opponent has to earn it if you don't make the bank.
If you both needed one ball then I would highly consider the shot with draw mainly because of positioning the cue ball on the short rail.

OMG, soft roll, your pulling our leg.

In that position I'm shooting the spot shot with firm draw. If it misses the sell out is rare. The spot shot will be made twice as often as that bank. Also missing the bank can easily sell out a return bank.

 

[suki]

I agree to disagree

I agree to disagree

In my opinion the bank is the better selection. Although the spot shot looks very inviting, many things could go wrong with it. For one you have to shoot soft and more than likely you will leave a bank with a good chance for position on the last ball.
If you shoot it with draw it now becomes even more difficult for the situation you're in. If you miss it shooting it with draw who knows how they will wind up. I like what he did. Your opponent has to earn it if you don't make the bank.
If you both needed one ball then I would highly consider the shot with draw mainly because of positioning the cue ball on the short rail.

First,why do u have to shoot it soft? If after 60 years of playing u have no confidence in making a spot shot then u should not be playing. I would shoot with enough speed to get it back up table three rails to right hand rail cue ball on lower right rail. But i do not plan on missing a spot shot too often.

 

[jrhendy]

Hey John, watched most of all 3 days and really enjoyed it. I just have one question if you don't mind answering. Why, on the last game when u had a spot shot to win the match with any easy safe did u not shoot it, rather you crossed bank the ball to your pocket missing it by a mile by the way,lol. I asked Kenny, Lettuce , and a couple other 1p players what they would do and they said shoot the spot shot, including me. Just like to know your thought process on that.

I think in that situation, where the ball count is now in my favor, you do not shoot a shot where he might win the game if you miss. I had already left a couple easy banks by slow rolling, and if I shoot the spot shot with draw, on those tight pockets I could rattle the corner and leave a game winning shot since the other ball was in a favorable position for him.

For a lower bet, I would ram the spot shot, but not there.

 

[fred bentivegna]

As I expected, that "staying a move up" thingy that I mentioned, apparently just shot over most heads. No skin off of my nose, I already know exactly what that means and how important that it is.

Beard

I am starting to feel like an American traitor on an Iranian Nuclear Bomb forum, and I keep leaking Atomic secrets, and instead of them picking up on it, they are using up their posts spouting, death to America!

 

[fred bentivegna]

I think in that situation, where the ball count is now in my favor, you do not shoot a shot where he might win the game if you miss. I had already left a couple easy banks by slow rolling, and if I shoot the spot shot with draw, on those tight pockets I could rattle the corner and leave a game winning shot since the other ball was in a favorable position for him.

For a lower bet, I would ram the spot shot, but not there.

Absolutely

I am in abject fear of all those that would opt for the bank under those conditions.

Beard

 

[suki]

I again agree to disagree

I again agree to disagree

I think in that situation, where the ball count is now in my favor, you do not shoot a shot where he might win the game if you miss. I had already left a couple easy banks by slow rolling, and if I shoot the spot shot with draw, on those tight pockets I could rattle the corner and leave a game winning shot since the other ball was in a favorable position for him.

For a lower bet, I would ram the spot shot, but not there.

You also say slow roll. Why not shoot it like I explained, do not slow roll it.
Medium speed is fine. You were having a rough time with all those cross banks no matter where they lay. I understand now since they were not gold crown rails.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I think in that situation, where the ball count is now in my favor, you do not shoot a shot where he might win the game if you miss. I had already left a couple easy banks by slow rolling, and if I shoot the spot shot with draw, on those tight pockets I could rattle the corner and leave a game winning shot since the other ball was in a favorable position for him.

For a lower bet, I would ram the spot shot, but not there.

Absolutely

I am in abject fear of all those that would opt for the bank under those conditions.

Beard

I'm assuming that Fred is commenting on the spot-shot revelation. I always enjoyed playing people who would do one thing for cheap and another thing for $$$.

I like the bank John shot because the pockets were so tight, the bet wouldn't come into play in my mind. Situational theory & choices are two aspects of One-Pocket that John & Ghosty both excel at. I can't believe how good John & Ghosty hit some shots and they didn't go. Very tight pockets.

Dennis

 

[Frank Almanza]

First,why do u have to shoot it soft? If after 60 years of playing u have no confidence in making a spot shot then u should not be playing. I would shoot with enough speed to get it back up table three rails to right hand rail cue ball on lower right rail. But i do not plan on missing a spot shot too often.

It's because of the experience of 60 years of playing that has made me wise enough to know that the bank shot is the highest percentage to win in this situation. I said win not necessary make.
None of us expect to miss when we're shooting a spot shot but we do. Like the Beard said the bank shot is the shot we don't want them to shoot.
With tight pockets that spot shot isn't so easy.
I've been in enough situations like this for that amount of $ and more to know how your arm can tighten up and miss hit that spot shot. No need to take that chance.
And it's because of that 60 years of playing and learning from it that I can still compete with most players. I think I can play spot shots as well as most but one needs to know when to back off from the machismo.
So, even though I back off from shooting some spot shots I continue to play.
Play some?

 

[darmoose]

You also say slow roll. Why not shoot it like I explained, do not slow roll it.
Medium speed is fine. You were having a rough time with all those cross banks no matter where they lay. I understand now since they were not gold crown rails.

Shooting the bank shot is the safe play, while still giving the shooter the chance to make the ball or hang it up. Thats what experience is telling JR and Fred and me. Getting safe is all important.

 

[jrhendy]

You also say slow roll. Why not shoot it like I explained, do not slow roll it.
Medium speed is fine. You were having a rough time with all those cross banks no matter where they lay. I understand now since they were not gold crown rails.

I am probably around 70% to make the spot shot shooting firm and drawing the cue ball. I made several in the session and also missed a couple.

The other 30% could be a scratch, hitting it good but not good enough and doubling the tit and the ball goes over to his side or leaves a bank he might get both balls on.

I had 4k bet and was lucky to have the opportunity to win. The angle I took on the bank had a 98% chance of coming out safe if I missed, which I did.

When I am gambling high, and this is high for me, and I have the advantage in ball count, I NEVER go for a shot you can lose the game on when there is another option.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I've been catching up on work that I took off from but I'm gonna take time to respond to a few posts...might as well start here as anywhere...

In serious matches, I'm also shooting the cross-corner here, for all the reasons that John and Frank already gave...

For 20-30 a game, take your pick, shoot whatever you feel like.

- Ghost

 

[jrhendy]

First, let me say that I watched the entire 21 or so grueling hours of this match, and I thoroughly enjoyed it, in spite of the opinion that I happen to have that it could and probably should have been completed in about half of that time. I think the "moving" and shot selection was very good and the ballmaking was a little subpar at times, although some very creative shots were made by both players.

I think John deserves, and has recieved, tremendous credit for being willing to travel several thousand miles, absorb the expense of a trip like this, and play an opponent on his home court, especially at his age. His reputation is well deserved.

However, any objective analysis of this match would have to at least touch on one distasteful aspect of the play to be complete. I have no problem with Lukes defensive playing style, in fact it is similar to mine, and I think this style makes for very interesting one pocket, not to mention that if you can't make a ball you better develop some defense. But, since Luke seems somewhat dismayed at there being any critisizm of his play, which begs the question. Perhaps he would like to hear one spectators opinion as to why he has that fowl taste in his mouth.

Using the 21 minute clip, which was very exciting, and which Luke wants to point to, and which I have no reason to think does not represent the entire match fairly well, let me offer this.

There were twelve innings, or trips to the table for each player in this clip. Measuring from the end of the opponents last shot, Lukes time at the table during the last 21 minutes was 15.5 minutes and Johns time at the table was 5.5 minutes (73% vs 28%). Extrapolated over the 21 hour match Luke had the table 15.5 hours to Johns 5.5 hours.

Now, while I don't know if this is typically Lukes normal cadence, I do know that playing this slow can make it hard to get action. Lukes preshot antics of walking away from the table, circling the table, chalking his stick several times, getting down to shoot only to rise and start all over again, even for large cheese, are often looked on unfavorably. They are sometimes regarded as "moves" defined as anything from ignorrant and annoying to deliberate and sharking in nature.

In any case, failure to recognize and alter this behavior, and consider the potential affect on your opponent over three days of play is the difference between the two players, and what IMO drew much of the negative remarks.

Pls accept this opinion in the constructive nature it is offered, and use it to improve your play in the future.

I have played the Ghost enough times before to know "He likes to look em over". I learned a long time ago not to let the other players pace bother me, and it did not bother me here and I did not consider it a move.

I played Artie B twice, both races to seven, and one took 12 1/2 hours and the other 14+ hours. I never once thought he did it as a shark and did not here. Sometimes they will think too much and choose the wrong shot.

The fact that as many people watched and posted is, in itself, a positive for our game. There are always going to be differences of opinion and negative remarks.

We are all individuals with our own way of doing things. If I thought any opponent was taking too long to take advantage, I would ask for a time clock.

 

[Island Drive]

Expelling less energy over the period of time you played would definitely become a benefitting factor late in the match.

 

[jrhendy]

Expelling less energy over the period of time you played would definitely become a benefitting factor late in the match.

Darn it Bill, don't go giving my secrets out.:heh

 

[Fast Lenny]

Hey Big John, who is next on the list?