Some responding over here

[Tom Wirth]

It's funny that you posted this. In the late sixties I played a guy giving up 11 to 4. At one point he says to me that I'm taking too long. I looked at him and said "I'd like to see how fast you'll play giving up 11/4 for $100". Which was a fair wager for that time.
My experience tells me that when someone complains about how slow you're playing it's because they are losing. When they're winning it doesn't bother them.

Hey Frank, It's funny you posted that. I used to run weekly 9 ball tournaments and this one time a p[layer came to me complaining that his opponent kept crying about one thing or another during their match. He asked me if there way anything I could do about it. I told him that I couldn't but he could. He asked what he could do that I couldn't and I told him he could lose. That should make him stop his crying. He walked away with a new attitude.

Tom

 

[Dudley]

It's funny that you posted this. In the late sixties I played a guy giving up 11 to 4. At one point he says to me that I'm taking too long. I looked at him and said "I'd like to see how fast you'll play giving up 11/4 for $100". Which was a fair wager for that time.
My experience tells me that when someone complains about how slow you're playing it's because they are losing. When they're winning it doesn't bother them.

Taking time to find the right shot is a big part of one pocket.. I personally get frustrated when I realize that I took a dumb shot just because I was too quick to pick a shot. In a tough game the subtle shots often are the big difference like protecting a bank or a ball that benefits your side.

There are some characters out there that might slow play just to annoy there opponent.. This is not what I'm talking about at all. --> That's shady.

But what I saw on the stream was 2 players grinding out a tough fought battle. They both maintained a natural rhythm from my perspective.

Some shots you know what you're gonna do before you come to the table others you need to think a bit.

I play super fast most of the time unless I'm outmatched- Then I have to rack my brain to find a shot to get out from the death traps.

Dudley

 

[jrhendy]

About betting a little I forgot you know Ernesto D. ask Ernesto about 1986 at Atlantic City the one handed game, you'll love the story.FastEddieF. from Baltimore. Also I've been up and down the latter many times,horses,cards, dice and very little Pool. I hope to meet you in D.C.C. where you beat the great Artie about 3 or 4 years ago.

I played a few games with Artie at his house in Las Vegas in July on his new Diamond. No wager involved, but I figured he might be scouting my game for Billy I., who probably put up most of the $$ in the recent match.

Ernesto and I locked horns many times in the late 70's through the 80's. I would torture him at one handed golf and then play a set of nine ball for whatever I won. Didn't always win but when I did, it was a good one. I won his Gina cue twice and kept it the 2nd time. I couldn't touch him one handed on a pool table.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I appreciate your reply. I would agree if you played rotation you would shoot that shot a different way. I can see how somebody that only plays one pocket would want to roll it and try to avoid selling out the 15 ball.

1on1....this is interesting re. that shot...

Last night I had the first chance to look at the tape of a little of the match - I looked at just the first game...the interesting thing was..in the middle of that 1st game I got the chance to run some balls - I ran three, and then was faced with a similar shot to the one that I missed in the final game - but that time I shot the ball firm-hard, because I was trying to stun the cueball off the long rail and then back across table for shape to continue my run - well, I rattled the ball off the pocket points and missed it..instead of shooting it like that, I did have the option of rolling it in instead, and rolling down for a crossing type of cross-corner shot on the 5ball for my next shot - in hindsight, I wish I had rolled that shot too, and went on down for the bank shot next ...for those interested, here's a link to that youtube video - the shot I'm speaking of comes up at approx. the 28:35 point. ------>

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HMbEl87PQ4[/ame]

- Ghost

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Also...it takes some time to try and catch up on questions in the threads, questions I've been asked in pm's, etc....that said, I'm going to post a response re. slow play when I get a chance - maybe later tonight.

- Ghost

 

[DWS]

Wtf?

Wtf?

I think 1on1 was mostly interested in the long stall before you shot, as am I. You seem to have refrained from addressing any comments regarding your pace of play. I mean you had JR sitting in his chair for about 15 hours out of the 20 or so that were played. Hopefully you don't teach that as well.

Your game is good, you move good and are creative. I doubt that playing that slow helps your game.

This is way beyond poor taste. It's down right ignorant. Who the **** are you to question or comment on what the man teaches or his pace of play? Did you happen to see the John vs Artie match at DCC a couple of years ago. Now that was slow play. And Artie is considered
one of the best one pocket players ever because he took the time to look things over. Would you be making the same ignorant comments if he was playing the match? Bottom line for all of this is that unless you have some sort of vested interest in the match (which you did not), the pace of play, shot selection, or anything else pertaining to the match is none of your ****ing business. You would have smoked John in an hour right?

 

[1on1pooltournys]

I ran three, and then was faced with a similar shot to the one that I missed in the final game - but

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HMbEl87PQ4

- Ghost

Ghost...sorry..but..err...hmmmmmm...WTF do you mean "similar shot?"

The shot at 28:35 is nothing like the ball you missed for the match! Take two still images of the video footage you have and put them side by side. The shot in game 1 you are displaying is close to the pocket and you are demonstrating your fine acrobatic techniques with one foot on table and stretched out trying to make a bridge in which you can't even sight down the cue! On the other hand...in the final game, you have a comfortable bridge out in the middle of the table and can get a nice sight down the cue. The ball is not on the rail like the shot in game 1. The only "similar" thing is perhaps the cut, but as we all know there are 1 million shots on a pool table and they are all different.

So, reexamine the shot, and the amount of stall you took before you pulled the trigger on the final game and tell me if you'd do it the same?

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Ghost...sorry..but..err...hmmmmmm...WTF do you mean "similar shot?"

The shot at 28:35 is nothing like the ball you missed for the match!

tell me if you'd do it the same?

I disagree...I think the shots are not that dissimilar...I didn't say they were exactly the same......and...

I already answered your other question - why are you asking me again.....ok, I'll answer again for you - yes, I would shoot it the same way every time...and I wish I could get action in Vegas at $1,000 a pop at rolling it in.

Meanwhile, forget that...the main reason I put up this post re. that point in the game/match, was to maybe create discussion from other people of whether they would have tried to drill it in hard enough to get cross table for shape like I tried, or whether they would have rolled down for the cross-corner bank on the 5ball instead....people always want to categorize me as a squeeze player..tell you what, I guess I must not be one, cuz a true hardcore squeezer would have went down for the bank.

- Ghost

 

[tylerdurden]

Taking time to find the right shot is a big part of one pocket.. I personally get frustrated when I realize that I took a dumb shot just because I was too quick to pick a shot. In a tough game the subtle shots often are the big difference like protecting a bank or a ball that benefits your side.

There are some characters out there that might slow play just to annoy there opponent.. This is not what I'm talking about at all. --> That's shady.

But what I saw on the stream was 2 players grinding out a tough fought battle. They both maintained a natural rhythm from my perspective.

Some shots you know what you're gonna do before you come to the table others you need to think a bit.

I play super fast most of the time unless I'm outmatched- Then I have to rack my brain to find a shot to get out from the death traps.

Dudley

I gotta say I have found this assertion throughout these discussions rather dubious. I think there are good arguments to support players that like to take more time. I do it, and I am fine when it is done to me. I am even fine with watching it. But, as to getting into the head of the guy who is playing slow, and holding something against him if you decide it is a move or not? It should be that slower play is supported or not - not.... I support slow play when it is the right kind of slow play for me. That is too subjective. eg, This guy can play slow because he always plays slow, vs this guy can't play slow or it's shady because he never plays slow. Stuff like that does not work for me.

 

[Tom Wirth]

1on1....this is interesting re. that shot...

Last night I had the first chance to look at the tape of a little of the match - I looked at just the first game...the interesting thing was..in the middle of that 1st game I got the chance to run some balls - I ran three, and then was faced with a similar shot to the one that I missed in the final game - but that time I shot the ball firm-hard, because I was trying to stun the cueball off the long rail and then back across table for shape to continue my run - well, I rattled the ball off the pocket points and missed it..instead of shooting it like that, I did have the option of rolling it in instead, and rolling down for a crossing type of cross-corner shot on the 5ball for my next shot - in hindsight, I wish I had rolled that shot too, and went on down for the bank shot next ...for those interested, here's a link to that youtube video - the shot I'm speaking of comes up at approx. the 28:35 point. ------>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HMbEl87PQ4

- Ghost

Ghost, since you brought it up and so many others have chimed in, I now offer my observations into the mix. I believe the stun shot you chose on what looks like the twelve ball trying to come across for what looks like the nine was more or less a judgment call on your part. Stretching over the table hinders your ability to see clearly and stroke the ball in a normal fashion. You understood that going in and elected to shoot the stun shot anyway. Nothing wrong with that as long as you took all that into consideration before you shot. I don't know, but maybe you just didn't apply yourself to the shot as much as you should have. Only you know the answer to that question. I wonder if you considered using follow and going two rails for position on the combination. From the perspective of the camera angle it looks like that might have been possible too. But I really don't think this shot should be the issue here.

The shot previous to the twelve ball shot was where you made the error in my opinion. That shot was not well thought out and you made that shot far more difficult then it needed to be. You provided yourself very little angle to work to the opposite side of the table. A common error we are all guilty of from time to time, but one which could have and should have been avoided in one of two ways had you planned a little better.

The first way would have been to draw the cue ball up table without the use of the side rail. This is the easiest path to the angle you needed and would have assured you that an angle on the twelve is maintained. The second option would have been to use the side rail but come up higher playing position on the ball closer to the middle of the table. In this way you keep more balls in front of you giving you more options. As tight as this table is I understand why you played for the twelve but the problem you faced was more due to the previous shot.

One last thing, I'm not sure but it looked like you applied a touch of left hand English to the shot previous to the twelve ball shot. If this is true the English helped to keep the cue ball close to the side rail reducing the angle even further. Take a look at that shot. Do you remember if you used a bit of English there?

In your corner,

Tom

 

[Dudley]

I gotta say I have found this assertion throughout these discussions rather dubious. I think there are good arguments to support players that like to take more time. I do it, and I am fine when it is done to me. I am even fine with watching it. But, as to getting into the head of the guy who is playing slow, and holding something against him if you decide it is a move or not? It should be that slower play is supported or not - not.... I support slow play when it is the right kind of slow play for me. That is too subjective. eg, This guy can play slow because he always plays slow, vs this guy can't play slow or it's shady because he never plays slow. Stuff like that does not work for me.

Reading people is a big part of gambling... You can pick up tells and clues that show intentions. Taking a long time to shoot could be a move.. just as wiping down your cue with a towel or moving intentionally in line with someone's shot. Players that do stuff like this to get and edge are bad action in my book.

I also said in another post that if you don't like someone's action don't play them.

What I said isn't a hard rule or generality.

Just a random point

John and Ghost are both class in my book.


Dudley

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Ghost, since you brought it up and so many others have chimed in, I now offer my observations into the mix. I believe the stun shot you chose on what looks like the twelve ball trying to come across for what looks like the nine was more or less a judgment call on your part. Stretching over the table hinders your ability to see clearly and stroke the ball in a normal fashion. You understood that going in and elected to shoot the stun shot anyway. Nothing wrong with that as long as you took all that into consideration before you shot. I don't know, but maybe you just didn't apply yourself to the shot as much as you should have. Only you know the answer to that question. I wonder if you considered using follow and going two rails for position on the combination. From the perspective of the camera angle it looks like that might have been possible too. But I really don't think this shot should be the issue here.

The shot previous to the twelve ball shot was where you made the error in my opinion. That shot was not well thought out and you made that shot far more difficult then it needed to be. You provided yourself very little angle to work to the opposite side of the table. A common error we are all guilty of from time to time, but one which could have and should have been avoided in one of two ways had you planned a little better.

The first way would have been to draw the cue ball up table without the use of the side rail. This is the easiest path to the angle you needed and would have assured you that an angle on the twelve is maintained. The second option would have been to use the side rail but come up higher playing position on the ball closer to the middle of the table. In this way you keep more balls in front of you giving you more options. As tight as this table is I understand why you played for the twelve but the problem you faced was more due to the previous shot.

One last thing, I'm not sure but it looked like you applied a touch of left hand English to the shot previous to the twelve ball shot. If this is true the English helped to keep the cue ball close to the side rail reducing the angle even further. Take a look at that shot. Do you remember if you used a bit of English there?

In your corner,

Tom

Tom, buddy, I gotta disagree with you here...first of all...

You say my not getting proper position/proper angle "could have been avoided"...that's a silly thing to say - that's an absolute - there are no absolutes - except that were all gonna die one day......you can't make an outcome come out perfect just because you "planned" it to, unless you have magic powers - no matter which way I shot it, imperfect position wouldn't "be avoided" if I was to not execute successfully...

Of course I thought out the shot before shooting the 12....I was just off a little in my position - it wasn't my planning that was at fault, it was my execution - don't you think I was trying to end up with a little more angle on the twelve ball?...pretty funny, I've been getting slammed for thinking too long on my shots, now you say I didn't think long enough...:frus...

I had too much angle to play no-rail position...

Yes, I used a little outside english..and of course I know that will narrow my angle coming off the long rail (I learned that about 45 yrs. ago )...but what you're missing here, is that I was meaning to go about another 4-6 inches further up-table, which would have opened up the angle enough for me, and which would have also allowed me to reach the shot comfortably, and not have to halfway climb on the table and stretch to shoot the 12...bottom line, I shot a little softer than I wanted to...

And since I had better options..no way, on those tight pockets, was I gonna load up on inside english to try and come down and around for that combination.

I'm in your corner too :heh, Ghost

 

[tylerdurden]

Reading people is a big part of gambling... You can pick up tells and clues that show intentions. Taking a long time to shoot could be a move.. just as wiping down your cue with a towel or moving intentionally in line with someone's shot. Players that do stuff like this to get and edge are bad action in my book.

I also said in another post that if you don't like someone's action don't play them.

What I said isn't a hard rule or generality.

Just a random point

John and Ghost are both class in my book.


Dudley

Yeah, I see your point, and agree for the most part.

Interestingly, I once heard Mike Sigel say he sometimes would tend to slow down a bit when playing a faster player.... to kinda get them out of their rhythm. The way I see this, let's say we all stipulate that all players get on average X amount of time per shot. The way I see it, whether a player wants to use that X amount of time to think on his shot, steady his nerves, or take his time to shark his opponent, it is all up to him.... none of those any worse than the other. But I do understand some people may not wanna play a guy who plays slow on purpose for sure.

 

[Red Shoes]

As far as the "Ghost's" speed of play....I probably have more "matches" with Bruce than anybody on the site. We go through times where we will play every Wednesday afternoon for 4 or 5 months in a row then Bruce might slide out of the Wednesday slot because of work or health issues. I only get to "PLAY" on Wednesday afternoons...the rest of the time, I have to act like a POOL ROOM OWNER. Anyhow Bruce's (The Ghost) "speed of play" is just fine. Not fast or slow....it is the same speed as any other GOOD PLAYER. The rest of Chicago will tell you that I play "faster" than most humans...so it is not just an "uninformed" comment.

 

[SJDinPHX]

Reading people is a big part of gambling... You can pick up tells and clues that show intentions. Taking a long time to shoot could be a move.. just as wiping down your cue with a towel or moving intentionally in line with someone's shot. Players that do stuff like this to get and edge are bad action in my book.

Dudley

Very good observations Dudley, especially your first sentence. It does not take long to determine whether an opponent is prone to sharking.. Having regularly played some of the worlds greatest 'sharker's', (RA, Bucktooth, and MANY others)...I made it a point to learn THEIR 'hot buttons' as well, and I became very proficient at defending myself. (if the need arose)

I always preferred to just 'play the game', but I must admit I kind of enjoyed the challenge of matching wits, in the other 'BIG part of gambling too ! ..I realize this attitude does not appeal to everyone, but to me, there was never any such thing as "BAD ACTION" !.. Every big $$$ match-up will usually present a different set of challenges !..I always chose to accept them...That could be why I stayed in constant action, for a lot of years !

PS..'Slow play' can be annoying, but it never bothered me enough to take me out of my game !

 

[Tom Wirth]

Tom, buddy, I gotta disagree with you here...first of all...

You say my not getting proper position/proper angle "could have been avoided"...that's a silly thing to say - that's an absolute - there are no absolutes - except that were all gonna die one day......you can't make an outcome come out perfect just because you "planned" it to, unless you have magic powers - no matter which way I shot it, imperfect position wouldn't "be avoided" if I was to not execute successfully...

Of course I thought out the shot before shooting the 12....I was just off a little in my position - it wasn't my planning that was at fault, it was my execution - don't you think I was trying to end up with a little more angle on the twelve ball?...pretty funny, I've been getting slammed for thinking too long on my shots, now you say I didn't think long enough...:frus...Ghosty, I'm not at all in the camp of those who thought you took too long to shoot throughout the match. You play at your own pace and just because others play faster does not mean your pace is wrong or their pace is right.
I had too much angle to play no-rail position...

Yes, I used a little outside english..and of course I know that will narrow my angle coming off the long rail (I learned that about 45 yrs. ago )...I know you know these things. I was not implying you did not.but what you're missing here, is that I was meaning to go about another 4-6 inches further up-table, which would have opened up the angle enough for me, and which would have also allowed me to reach the shot comfortably, and not have to halfway climb on the table and stretch to shoot the 12 This is a very good idea...bottom line, I shot a little softer than I wanted to...Yes, I understand we don't always execute as we would like.

And since I had better options..no way, on those tight pockets, was I gonna load up on inside english to try and come down and around for that combination. I was just asking if you had considered it or if the angle was even there for the shot. I couldn't tell from the table image.
I'm in your corner too :heh, Ghost

I didn't mean to step on any toes, Ghost. I know you have suffered undue criticism of late. I for one thought you played a fine match against a formidable opponent. You acquitted yourself admirably.

Tom

 

[SJDinPHX]

I didn't mean to step on any toes, Ghost. I know you have suffered undue criticism of late. I for one thought you played a fine match against a formidable opponent. You acquitted yourself admirably.

Tom

I agree Tom !

 

[petie]

Very good observations Dudley, especially your first sentence. It does not take long to determine whether an opponent is prone to sharking.. Having regularly played some of the worlds greatest 'sharker's', (RA, Bucktooth, and MANY others)...I made it a point to learn THEIR 'hot buttons' as well, and I became very proficient at defending myself. (if the need arose)

I always preferred to just 'play the game', but I must admit I kind of enjoyed the challenge of matching wits, in the other 'BIG part of gambling too ! ..I realize this attitude does not appeal to everyone, but to me, there was never any such thing as "BAD ACTION" !.. Every big $$$ match-up will usually present a different set of challenges !..I always chose to accept them...That could be why I stayed in constant action, for a lot of years !

PS..'Slow play' can be annoying, but it never bothered me enough to take me out of my game !

Good to 'hear your voice', Dick. You always have unique insights.

 

[Dudley]

Very good observations Dudley, especially your first sentence. It does not take long to determine whether an opponent is prone to sharking.. Having regularly played some of the worlds greatest 'sharker's', (RA, Bucktooth, and MANY others)...I made it a point to learn THEIR 'hot buttons' as well, and I became very proficient at defending myself. (if the need arose)

I always preferred to just 'play the game', but I must admit I kind of enjoyed the challenge of matching wits, in the other 'BIG part of gambling too ! ..I realize this attitude does not appeal to everyone, but to me, there was never any such thing as "BAD ACTION" !.. Every big $$$ match-up will usually present a different set of challenges !..I always chose to accept them...That could be why I stayed in constant action, for a lot of years !

PS..'Slow play' can be annoying, but it never bothered me enough to take me out of my game !

For me Pool is entertainment and something that I really enjoy- so I try to play people without the headaches. It takes the fun out of the game for me. I realize that those that are trying to make money in the game can't be so choosy.

As you said-->Any action is good action for them.

I totally agree with the idea that you adjust your principles to the level of your opponent. If they want to shark you--> shark them back.

I personally don't enjoy this aspect of matching up/action. But I understand it.


Dudley

 

[lfigueroa]

I watched an hour of day two and the end of day three and would like to say that both players showed a lot of moxie.

I would also like to hand out big huge brass props to John for traveling to Chi-Town, fading the nut, foreign equipment (that table is not easy to adjust too), and the hometown crowd which was undoubtedly leaning "the other way" for three days.

Lou Figueroa