I just met a guy who breaks by hitting the 3rd ball (from the spot) half full. The corner ball never moves very far at all, the cue ball lays nicely on the side rail. Doesn't spread the rack much. Overall a bit conservative. Says he doesn't want to lose by a good reply to the break. I always thought the break was supposed to be an advantage. Is that just old school thinking? What do you think?
Another way to break.
- Thread starter 8andout
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LSJohn
Verified Member
A conservative break makes sense if you think you've got a good edge on your opponent, otherwise it seems like trying not to lose instead of trying to win (not that there's anything wrong with that.) :lol
Efren breaks more conservatively than most of us, I assume on the theory of "good edge." Your guy is taking it a step further. Maybe he's real proud of the way he's matchin' up. :heh
A lot of very smart one pocket players have fooled around with the break over the years and the same break shot we all use stays in use. Why? Because it works best over all the others and you can win the game without your opponent shooting.
Patrick Johnson
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A regular sparring partner of mine uses that break exclusively - and hits it very well. Compared with the standard break he puts a ball in his pocket (or jaws it) a noticeably higher percentage of times and almost never sells out the corner ball, but doesn't get quite as good a spread.
I have a theory that this break can be hit a little harder to get a better spread if it's hit with a little draw and inside spin to kill speed off the bottom rail, but I'm afraid that might be a little too tricky for prime time...
pj
chgo
straightback
Verified Member
Does someone have a link to a slow motion video of a one pocket break shot from above?
Tom Wirth
Verified Member
Typically hitting further down along the side of the stack is to prevent selling out the corner ball. Nothing is more important on the break than avoiding selling out. The lower the hit on the stack the less spread and less effective the break but the less likely the sell out too.
I think Efren breaks weak, and I haven't noticed this, but he doesn't need to rely on the break giving him an advantage. His fertile mind is advantage enough over most players.
Breaking from closer toward the center of the table and splitting the first two balls is a good way to play a conservative break. A more glancing hit with a little less power and the cue ball still goes between the second and third diamonds. Not much spread but less chance of selling out either.
Tom
I think Efren breaks weak, and I haven't noticed this, but he doesn't need to rely on the break giving him an advantage. His fertile mind is advantage enough over most players.
Breaking from closer toward the center of the table and splitting the first two balls is a good way to play a conservative break. A more glancing hit with a little less power and the cue ball still goes between the second and third diamonds. Not much spread but less chance of selling out either.
Tom
Depending on the table this break can be very effective.
I used it in PHX on a tight GC when I broke and ran 10 and out off the break.
I use it in tournaments for sure because there is zero chance of leaving a shot on the corner ball.
I also use it on the one pocket prop by hitting it hard and going 3 rails with the cue ball. Always have a shot.
The easy way to practice this break is to rack and then remove the extra balls leaving a 9 ball rack pointing at your pocket. Learn where you need to hit the first ball to make the end ball in your pocket. It is not a half ball hit on most tables.
Bill S.
Patrick Johnson
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rack.jpg
Yes, just like this.
You will see right away how the hit and English affects the end ball.
With that knowledge you can then go back to a full rack and start to put the cue ball where you want it after the break.
Remember to place the cue ball about 3" from the side rail to start. Use a little inside because you will need it with a full rack. Adjust the contact with the first object ball. Not the English.
One side always seems easier than the other.
The corner ball will go in the pocket or hang when you get it right.
Bill S.
gulfportdoc
Verified Member
This is very interesting, but I'm confused. Are y'all talking about hitting various places on the 13 ball in PJ's diagram? And trying to make the 4 ball?
Thanks~
Doc
Thanks~
Doc
Patrick Johnson
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I guess the table orientation is ambiguous at first glance. Here's what we're talking about, Doc.
pj
chgo
View attachment 12333
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3rdballbrk.jpg
Doc,
In the diagram you would hit the 6 ball so it would move the 5 ball a little more that the 9 ball pushing the end ball toward the pocket. All the other balls are irrelevant.
It's really easy.
I never break the conventional way anymore.
Works better from one side or the other given the table.
A good way to experiment is with the full Magic Rack.
Bill S.
In the diagram you would hit the 6 ball so it would move the 5 ball a little more that the 9 ball pushing the end ball toward the pocket. All the other balls are irrelevant.
It's really easy.
I never break the conventional way anymore.
Works better from one side or the other given the table.
A good way to experiment is with the full Magic Rack.
Bill S.
Patrick Johnson
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Here's a theory about how to hit this break to maximize the throw of the corner ball toward your pocket:
A half ball hit cuts the 6 almost straight through the long axis of this "tilted 9 ball rack", driving the 11 ball straight ahead into the rail as shown in the picture on the left.
I think Joe Tucker might say that, in order to drive the 11 ball to the left (as we face these pictures) we should hit the 6 ball from the left - like the picture on the right. This would mean hitting it thinner than half ball, probably with no side spin* and a rolling CB. (I doubt that it could be hit as thin as I exaggerated in the picture.)
pj
chgo
[EDIT: I see that Bill has already said the same thing (except more clearly in fewer words). But I had fun drawing the pictures.
]
[EDIT2: On second thought I was wrong about "no side spin" - inside spin would probably help throw the 11 ball (by reducing throw on the 6).]
View attachment 18478
A half ball hit cuts the 6 almost straight through the long axis of this "tilted 9 ball rack", driving the 11 ball straight ahead into the rail as shown in the picture on the left.
I think Joe Tucker might say that, in order to drive the 11 ball to the left (as we face these pictures) we should hit the 6 ball from the left - like the picture on the right. This would mean hitting it thinner than half ball, probably with no side spin* and a rolling CB. (I doubt that it could be hit as thin as I exaggerated in the picture.)
pj
chgo
[EDIT: I see that Bill has already said the same thing (except more clearly in fewer words). But I had fun drawing the pictures.
][EDIT2: On second thought I was wrong about "no side spin" - inside spin would probably help throw the 11 ball (by reducing throw on the 6).]
View attachment 18478
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throwbreak.jpg
Last edited:
gulfportdoc
Verified Member
Well, THANK YOU Bill and Patrick for the great tip!! Can't wait to try it out.
And Patrick, those photo illustrations are first rate. Do you take pictures using your table, then use Greenshot or some screen shot program to make the lines, etc.? Really nice!
Cheers~
Doc
And Patrick, those photo illustrations are first rate. Do you take pictures using your table, then use Greenshot or some screen shot program to make the lines, etc.? Really nice!
Cheers~
Doc
LSJohn
Verified Member
Here's a theory about how to hit this break to maximize the throw of the corner ball toward your pocket:
A half ball hit cuts the 6 almost straight through the long axis of this "tilted 9 ball rack", driving the 11 ball straight ahead into the rail as shown in the picture on the left.
I think Joe Tucker might say that, in order to drive the 11 ball to the left (as we face these pictures) we should hit the 6 ball from the left - like the picture on the right. This would mean hitting it thinner than half ball, probably with no side spin* and a rolling CB. (I doubt that it could be hit as thin as I exaggerated in the picture.)
pj
chgo
[EDIT: I see that Bill has already said the same thing (except more clearly in fewer words). But I had fun drawing the pictures.
[EDIT2: On second thought I was wrong about "no side spin" - inside spin would probably help throw the 11 ball (by reducing throw on the 6).]
View attachment 18478
You da Man!
gulfportdoc
Verified Member
I did try a few of these layouts when I got home tonight. I mainly tried the hit on the 3rd ball with a full rack. I positioned the CB 1/2 diamond in from the rail on the head string.
First of all, this break is generally pretty safe in terms of leaving anything to shoot on the opponent's side (breaking side). However this makes the speed very important to get the CB about 2-1/2 diamonds up from the foot rail. Otherwise the opponent usually has an easy return.
In terms of making or hanging a ball in my own corner, it wasn't that successful. Didn't seem to matter whether I hit 1/2 ball, or thinner. And if the 3rd ball is hit too thin, it scratches off the corner ball. I do want to fool around with it some more.
As far as using the 9-ball rack to practice trying to influence the back ball to go or hang in the corner, I didn't have much luck with that either, although I only shot it a half-dozen times. So I want to experiment some more with it as well.
Now-- my Diamond table is clean, very dry and fast, so that may have an influence on the ball reactions for purposes of this discussion.
Having said all that, I think there is something very interesting here, and it's certainly worth investigating further, and trying to figure out under which conditions this 3rd ball break would work best....and how.
~Doc
First of all, this break is generally pretty safe in terms of leaving anything to shoot on the opponent's side (breaking side). However this makes the speed very important to get the CB about 2-1/2 diamonds up from the foot rail. Otherwise the opponent usually has an easy return.
In terms of making or hanging a ball in my own corner, it wasn't that successful. Didn't seem to matter whether I hit 1/2 ball, or thinner. And if the 3rd ball is hit too thin, it scratches off the corner ball. I do want to fool around with it some more.
As far as using the 9-ball rack to practice trying to influence the back ball to go or hang in the corner, I didn't have much luck with that either, although I only shot it a half-dozen times. So I want to experiment some more with it as well.
Now-- my Diamond table is clean, very dry and fast, so that may have an influence on the ball reactions for purposes of this discussion.
Having said all that, I think there is something very interesting here, and it's certainly worth investigating further, and trying to figure out under which conditions this 3rd ball break would work best....and how.
~Doc
jrhendy
Verified Member
I did try a few of these layouts when I got home tonight. I mainly tried the hit on the 3rd ball with a full rack. I positioned the CB 1/2 diamond in from the rail on the head string.
First of all, this break is generally pretty safe in terms of leaving anything to shoot on the opponent's side (breaking side). However this makes the speed very important to get the CB about 2-1/2 diamonds up from the foot rail. Otherwise the opponent usually has an easy return.
In terms of making or hanging a ball in my own corner, it wasn't that successful. Didn't seem to matter whether I hit 1/2 ball, or thinner. And if the 3rd ball is hit too thin, it scratches off the corner ball. I do want to fool around with it some more.
As far as using the 9-ball rack to practice trying to influence the back ball to go or hang in the corner, I didn't have much luck with that either, although I only shot it a half-dozen times. So I want to experiment some more with it as well.
Now-- my Diamond table is clean, very dry and fast, so that may have an influence on the ball reactions for purposes of this discussion.
Having said all that, I think there is something very interesting here, and it's certainly worth investigating further, and trying to figure out under which conditions this 3rd ball break would work best....and how.
~Doc
Table conditions certainly have something to do with it Doc, especially where you are.
I played around seven hours yesterday and my break sucked on the tight Gold Crowns we play on the first several breaks. I switched to hitting the 2nd/3rd ball on my break and made one and hung three or four more.
I can't explain why, maybe because they turn the air up in the afternoon for us old geezers, but the game was over after the break on most of these games.
The cloth is Simonis 860, but not the tournament blue and is wearing a little thin, so that could also have something to do with it.
You have to be able to switch around if what you re normally doing is not working.
I did try a few of these layouts when I got home tonight. I mainly tried the hit on the 3rd ball with a full rack. I positioned the CB 1/2 diamond in from the rail on the head string.
First of all, this break is generally pretty safe in terms of leaving anything to shoot on the opponent's side (breaking side). However this makes the speed very important to get the CB about 2-1/2 diamonds up from the foot rail. Otherwise the opponent usually has an easy return.
In terms of making or hanging a ball in my own corner, it wasn't that successful. Didn't seem to matter whether I hit 1/2 ball, or thinner. And if the 3rd ball is hit too thin, it scratches off the corner ball. I do want to fool around with it some more.
As far as using the 9-ball rack to practice trying to influence the back ball to go or hang in the corner, I didn't have much luck with that either, although I only shot it a half-dozen times. So I want to experiment some more with it as well.
Now-- my Diamond table is clean, very dry and fast, so that may have an influence on the ball reactions for purposes of this discussion.
Having said all that, I think there is something very interesting here, and it's certainly worth investigating further, and trying to figure out under which conditions this 3rd ball break would work best....and how.
~Doc
Doc,
Try placing the cue ball closer to the rail. You are too far away.
Check the rack to make sure the 9 balls are frozen. Makes a big difference. The other balls don't matter. Make sure you are hitting only the 6 ball.
If there is a space between the 6 ball and the 9 ball you can hit the 6 ball fuller.
Playing the 10 ball Ghost today I made 5 balls on the break. Never have done that before.
Bill S.