Kicking Systems

[lll]

The TOP 3 Cushion players in the World, ONLY use "mathematical" systems for "cushion first" shots, or to "lock-in" a point without position and the FINAL point of the match!

The other time systems are helpful is when a player is "out-of-stroke" and use it as a guide to get back there quicker, by having more confidence scoring.

The players in Pool that kick the BEST, and I don't care who they are, have some kind of "Carom" background! Whether it be, 3 cushion, 1 cushion or balkline!

Doc; In the case of myself, I stated years ago in front of ALL the 3C players from the 70's and early 80's. "Black tape up ALL the spots, and I would spot anyone, 10 on 50!" If you know the angles and the "correct" tracks, the diamonds DON"T mean a thing!

In 3C, you CAN NOT play position, trying to contact the CB exactly on the "first and third" rail" and play position. One in 200 shots will come up where all the elements of the shot coincide with the shot! It would be like the "planets aligning for the perfect Solar eclipse!"

I will say this about systems. There are certain, "Ball Aiming" systems that seem to me, extremely helpful when pocketing a ball and going, "long, short, - long, short, long - long, long, short!" for position! Especially playing One Pocket

so it helps "out of sroke players get confidence
since 90- 95 % of plsyers dont play enough hours except for the pros lack alittle confidence
so it COULD help them
..........
here are certain, "Ball Aiming" systems that seem to me, extremely helpful when pocketing a ball and going, "long, short, - long, short, long - long, long, short!" for position! Especially playing One Pocket
....
a post or pm to ex[lain this is appreciated....

 

[mr3cushion]

so it helps "out of sroke players get confidence
since 90- 95 % of plsyers dont play enough hours except for the pros lack alittle confidence
so it COULD help them
..........
here are certain, "Ball Aiming" systems that seem to me, extremely helpful when pocketing a ball and going, "long, short, - long, short, long - long, long, short!" for position! Especially playing One Pocket
....
a post or pm to ex[lain this is appreciated....

Larry; OPEN up my book, the "Aiming System" for the shots I'm referring to are in there! If you need help call me.

 

[lll]

Larry; OPEN up my book, the "Aiming System" for the shots I'm referring to are in there! If you need help call me.

thanks bill...

 

[jrhendy]

I'm assuming this "spot on the wall" is the standard 3-cushion "spot on the wall" kick played a bit long so it will get close to the side? Just trying to ascertain if there is a SECOND "spot on the wall trick other than the one where you pick a spot about 15' out from the first rail contact point...

The spot on the wall I am talking about is an actual "Spot on the wall" put there by a regular player in a golf game. There could be different spots by different players depending on the English they used on their kicks.

The "Spot" could be the corner of a cue rack or a certain location on any fixed object that you used to line up the two rail kick.

I of course never used them because as Doc noted, I knew exactly where to hit it (And with perfect speed too).

 

[mr3cushion]

thanks bill...

Larry; go to page #70

This will help you visualize the shot. This particular shot with MY aiming system requires, minimum 1 O'clock English.

View attachment 11120

This is a "typical" drop-in shot playing 3C.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

But, pool, if you must use the "spot-on-the-wall" system the, "correct" distance is the width of what ever size table you are playing on. eg; 4.5 aim 4 and one half feet from the edge of the table. 5.0 table, aim 5 feet from edge and so on!

Yes, because "spot on the wall" is another name for "mirror system" - the spot is where the mirror image of the target would be if there was a mirror at the cushion nose.

It works for multi-rail targets too, and for targets (balls) in the middle of the table: imagine having mirrors on all four sides of the table at the cushions, reflecting inward - like in a funhouse of mirrors you'd see mirror image tables receding in the distance in all directions, reflected side-to-side and end-to-end. Aim at the reflected target one table over for a one-rail shot, two tables over for a two-rail shot, etc. Like John said, it can be a handy edge to have at your home table to pick out actual physical "markers" around the table for this purpose.

pj
chgo

 

[straightback]

So is the reason the old-timers say pick a point 15' out is that it is a three-cushion kick, which is 3 times 4.5' or 5' width? PJ, are you familiar with this old school technique?

 

[mr3cushion]

So is the reason the old-timers say pick a point 15' out is that it is a three-cushion kick, which is 3 times 4.5' or 5' width? PJ, are you familiar with this old school technique?

NEVER heard of it in MY lifetime, and I was around one of the BEST mathematical minds on systems of the last 75 years. Every neophyte 3C player that learned the "SOTW" system, was instructed to aim at an object at the 5' distance for 3, 4, 5 ,6 cushion shots.

Never, ever heard of a 2 tables over "SOTW" aiming for a two cushion shot!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So is the reason the old-timers say pick a point 15' out is that it is a three-cushion kick, which is 3 times 4.5' or 5' width? PJ, are you familiar with this old school technique?

I'm not familiar with that one, but it could be a version of the same concept.

The target visualized this way is the "idealized" target as if the ball rebounded at perfect equal angles - so like using the diamonds for kicking/banking, it's a reference, not the actual target. Systems based on mirror images likely have adjustments for this built in.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes, because "spot on the wall" is another name for "mirror system" - the spot is where the mirror image of the target would be if there was a mirror at the cushion nose.

It works for multi-rail targets too, and for targets (balls) in the middle of the table: imagine having mirrors on all four sides of the table at the cushions, reflecting inward - like in a funhouse of mirrors you'd see mirror image tables receding in the distance in all directions, reflected side-to-side and end-to-end. Aim at the reflected target one table over for a one-rail shot, two tables over for a two-rail shot, etc. Like John said, it can be a handy edge to have at your home table to pick out actual physical "markers" around the table for this purpose.

pj
chgo

Here's how this looks for a 3-railer to the corner aimed from a couple of different spots:

View attachment 67222

 

[straightback]

Yes, PJ, that is the one I've k own for years. 3C, I'm surprised you've never heard of this one. Amongst older guys, this is the ONE "system" they all know for sure. It's in all the old pool books, Willie Jopling's video, Phil Capelle books, etc. While it is a bit rudimentary, it is almost everything you need for 3-cushion kicks and banks!

"Learn this one simple trick that insurance companies don't want you to know!"

 

[straightback]

I don't think there is a similar system for 2-rail kicks, but I'd like to hear from PJ. Regarding 2-rail kicks of any nature, doesn't everyone just draw a line from the balls' midpoint through the pocket, parallel shift, and then make adjustment based on the angle of approach and English pickup? Or is there a more accurate system that doesn't require adjustments to shorten up?

 

[straightback]

Efren Reyes may be the only player I've ever seen, who kicks single, or multi-rail, with good speed, more accurately than most top level golf players..And yes, I am aware of his background in carom games...But, you may have noticed, there ain't too many Efren's out there !

True, but there aren't many top pocket billiard players who have much carom experience, either. It is truly a niche game from an earlier time.

 

[bstroud]

Bill, if I hadn't figured out where to come off the rail, IN SIXTY YEARS, I guess I'd be hunting a system too !

Dick,

Good to see you back.

I guess I am still looking for improvement even at my advanced age.
The Zero-X system really works well for me on Diamond tables.

The game today is completely different than it used to be and I have spent the last year learning how to play on the tighter, faster equipment.

Bill S.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I don't think there is a similar system for 2-rail kicks, but I'd like to hear from PJ. Regarding 2-rail kicks of any nature, doesn't everyone just draw a line from the balls' midpoint through the pocket, parallel shift, and then make adjustment based on the angle of approach and English pickup? Or is there a more accurate system that doesn't require adjustments to shorten up?

I think all of these mirror-image visualizations are reference tracks, not actual shot tracks. For instance, here's how a couple of 2-railers to the corner look as "equal-angle" tracks using the mirror visualization - I think you can see that they're not actual shot tracks, but they may be useful for estimating actual tracks.

pj
chgo

View attachment 34209

 

[mr3cushion]

We're somewhat, back on topic!

TY, PJ

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I moved my stuff to the Members Forum, as soon as I saw where you and Steve were heading with this thread. (posts #35 and 36)..I always get in trouble when I defend myself on the main forum... I seem to be debating with one guy whose probably never even played a game of golf, and one who admits he's never even 'watched' one ! (guess that makes me the stoopid one)

Adios, I've had enough !

I never expect a thread to stay strictly on topic - seems like the nature of the beast in discussion forums. Tangents often add an interesting facet to the topic - sometimes more interesting than the original.

As far as being cantankerous is concerned, funny makes up for a lot of that.

pj
chgo

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I moved my stuff to the Members Forum, as soon as I saw where you and Steve were heading with this thread. (posts #35 and 36)..I always get in trouble when I defend myself on the main forum... I seem to be debating with one guy whose probably never even played a game of golf, and one who admits he's never even 'watched' one ! (guess that makes me the stoopid one)

Adios, I've had enough !

The diamond system is a good gauge. For learning angles. The diamond system works. different on different tables. All the world champions learn the diamond system. And once they learn it and no it they don't have to practice it any more. Because they no it. And have memorized the angles.

No pool player knows the angels. Or has learned the maximum or what the extreme is on the angle. Pool players shoot pock and hope and guess at what angle to shoot. And to say that they no the angle. Is not a accurate description. And one kick shot can be the difference between winning and loosing.

The diamond system cant give you a head . Only you can do that yourself. And it teaches you how to create new and different angles. That you have to learn because you cannot get the angle you need to hit the ball.

I will post more on this and how much it can really help your game. Don't under estimate the value of something that you don't enjoy learning or doing. You will be glad you learned it. Because it can only help. And improve your game.
'
You don't have to do it or learn it. That's your choice. And every world champion knows it and can do it. And there is so much to learning about angles and systems. It can take 3 life times. And learning angles. Is not like lagging balls playing golf. Any great three cushion billiard player. Knows 75% more than the pool players about angle.

One example if you put the cue ball anywhere on the table and I ask you were will the cue ball hit the second and third diamond. Could you answer that. If I ask you what is the extreme that you can get on the third rail. Can you answer that?

 

[LSJohn]

I moved my stuff to the Members Forum, as soon as I saw where you and Steve were heading with this thread. (posts #35 and 36)..I always get in trouble when I defend myself on the main forum... I seem to be debating with one guy whose probably never even played a game of golf, and one who admits he's never even 'watched' one ! (guess that makes me the stoopid one)

Adios, I've had enough !

Where is that Buffalo dude who used to tell us what you REALLY think?

Now that guy made some sense.

 

[mr3cushion]

In my own kicking experience I probably use a mixture of simple systems and feel, with an emphasis on being careful with my english, because to me, errors in my english probably make more of a difference than errors in my judgment about where to hit the first cushion.

Steve; You are definitely on the right track when it comes to kicking, IMHO, it's all about the speed, angle and English into the first cushion which will or will not give the correct results the player is trying to achieve! Good thinking!