Stroke

[LSJohn]

Most of us think stroke is important -- and maybe for most people it is -- but I've seen Mizerak nearly cold-cock a bystander while applying extreme right hand english, Ghost hit his head on the table light on his follow-through, and Wayne beat everybody's brains out without ever looking threatening.

Mitch.... Aw, nevermind.

Maybe stroke is important up to a certain level of natural ability, and not so much thereafter. And stance is claimed by some to be really important, but we can see top players with all kinds of different stances.

One of our better players -- Bill Stroud -- recently took himself through a big stroke change and feels it's made a real difference.

One of the best players that ever lived -- Buddy Hall -- had/has all three: solid stance, pure stroke, natural ability..

I don't know about the old-timers, but I'd bet several of them had pretty crappy strokes or stances.

Are these things really important, just helpful, or nearly irrelevant?

 

[Triple Smart]

I feel that a good stroke is SUPER important on alot of shots. Not all of them but certain shots demand a good stroke, especially a shot thats almost a table length away, almost straight in and you need to get back to the end you are shooting from using high and spin! And on a slow table lol THEN the stroke is crucial IMO.

 

[LSJohn]

I feel that a good stroke is SUPER important on alot of shots. Not all of them but certain shots demand a good stroke, especially a shot thats almost a table length away, almost straight in and you need to get back to the end you are shooting from using high and spin! And on a slow table lol THEN the stroke is crucial IMO.

Hmmm.... maybe you really are Triple Smart after all.

 

[Triple Smart]

Lol idk about that but how many guy's you seen rattle a ball at a distance because of a flaw in their stroke? Uh huh.... A bunch lol ....or could be that they dont have a 300$ low- deflection shaft. Just sayin

 

[GoldCrown]

Are these things really important, just helpful, or nearly irrelevant?

How about Busta's stroke? Me..after about 50plus years of playing I realized I need help. I worked with Scott Lee a few times and really appreciate the SPF approach. I still eat Wheaties but have improved greatly, have more confidence. If anyone saw me play and thought I'm weak.....should have seen me before. Tom Wirth gave me a lot of good stroke pointers. Having a consistent stroke is a must have for myself. Also let's me love playing more.

 

[Triple Smart]

How about Busta's stroke? Me..after about 50plus years of playing I realized I need help. I worked with Scott Lee a few times and really appreciate the SPF approach. I still eat Wheaties but have improved greatly, have more confidence. If anyone saw me play and thought I'm weak.....should have seen me before. Tom Wirth gave me a lot of good stroke pointers. Having a consistent stroke is a must have for myself. Also let's me love playing more.

Busta's stroke....man he is the exception lol
I think it keeps him loose and free wheeling but even he has a pause before he pulls the trigger

 

[Jeff sparks]

Most of us think stroke is important -- and maybe for most people it is -- but I've seen Mizerak nearly cold-cock a bystander while applying extreme right hand english, Ghost hit his head on the table light on his follow-through, and Wayne beat everybody's brains out without ever looking threatening.

Mitch.... Aw, nevermind.

Maybe stroke is important up to a certain level of natural ability, and not so much thereafter. And stance is claimed by some to be really important, but we can see top players with all kinds of different stances.

One of our better players -- Bill Stroud -- recently took himself through a big stroke change and feels it's made a real difference.

One of the best players that ever lived -- Buddy Hall -- had/has all three: solid stance, pure stroke, natural ability..

I don't know about the old-timers, but I'd bet several of them had pretty crappy strokes or stances.

Are these things really important, just helpful, or nearly irrelevant?

Having a good one, stance, bridge, and stroke are all part of the basic arsenal, mix in imagination, confidence, knowledge, and heart, then add natural ability, killer instinct, and a burning passion to be one of the best, and you're off to a good start.

 

[LSJohn]

How about Busta's stroke? Me..after about 50plus years of playing I realized I need help. I worked with Scott Lee a few times and really appreciate the SPF approach. I still eat Wheaties but have improved greatly, have more confidence. If anyone saw me play and thought I'm weak.....should have seen me before. Tom Wirth gave me a lot of good stroke pointers. Having a consistent stroke is a must have for myself. Also let's me love playing more.

It seems very important for me too, but my worst flaw is increasing grip pressure on the final stroke. Freddy said something about that which made no sense to me but seems true and has helped me. He said tightening grip would cause under-cutting. Why that wouldn't cause a range of problems rather than just cutting too thin is beyond me, but it sure seems true for me.

 

[LSJohn]

Busta's stroke....man he is the exception lol
I think it keeps him loose and free wheeling but even he has a pause before he pulls the trigger

My son has a friend who is exceptionally talented. Started playing very good golf almost immediately after taking up the game. Same is true about his pool. He does his aiming and practice stroking at the center of the CB on every shot, then on the final stroke changes the hit to whatever english he wants to use. Works VERY well for him, and I think Busty is doing the same thing but aiming with preliminary strokes at the center-base of the CB.

 

[LSJohn]

good start.

Heh.

I excuse myself with the theory that natural ability is far and away the most important of those. At least I thnk it defines one's upper limit. IOW, I think there are people who play pool who could never reach shortstop caliber with any amount of knowledge and dedicated practice.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Triple Smart]

My son has a friend who is exceptionally talented. Started playing very good golf almost immediately after taking up the game. Same is true about his pool. He does his aiming and practice stroking at the center of the CB on every shot, then on the final stroke changes the hit to whatever english he wants to use. Works VERY well for him, and I think Busty is doing the same thing but aiming with preliminary strokes at the center-base of the CB.

I totally agree, i often wondered while watching him, if thats what he was doing? Whenever i set up on a shot, you would think i was going to draw every shot. While that works ok....it does cause me to over hit soft draws. Just havent practiced those shots enough lately. Anyways...i agree with you on Busta's stroke.

 

[bstroud]

John,

You have proved the point I made about changes in modern equipment forcing a change in the way I stroke.

We both knew and played many of the old timers that had peculiar motions and unusual strokes. Pucket, Miz, Chris, Johny Edwards, Cannonball, Buggs, Taylor. It's a long list. Most had long flowing strokes. It was necessary on the slow cloth.

They could get away with it on the loose equipment. So could I. That is no longer true. There are exceptions of course like Reyes and Busty but in general the players with the straight back and thru stroke are winning the most today.

Many come from a Snooker background. Starting with Allison. Most others evolved under the current playing conditions.

Why people want to play on tight pockets is a mystery to me but it is either join the revolution or get left on the wayside.

It is not easy to change a 50 year old habit but it is necessary to be able to compete.

Bill S.

 

[LSJohn]

John,

You have proved the point I made about changes in modern equipment forcing a change in the way I stroke.

We both knew and played many of the old timers that had peculiar motions and unusual strokes. Pucket, Miz, Chris, Johny Edwards, Cannonball, Buggs, Taylor. It's a long list. Most had long flowing strokes. It was necessary on the slow cloth.

They could get away with it on the loose equipment. So could I. That is no longer true. There are exceptions of course like Reyes and Busty but in general the players with the straight back and thru stroke are winning the most today.

Many come from a Snooker background. Starting with Allison. Most others evolved under the current playing conditions.

Why people want to play on tight pockets is a mystery to me but it is either join the revolution or get left on the wayside.

It is not easy to change a 50 year old habit but it is necessary to be able to compete.

Bill S.

Thanks, Bill.

 

[lll]

here is my 2 cents
for those that have less than classical stokes
they lived in a pool room
and learned to be CONSISTENT in their unconventional delivery of the cue stick
they are NOT the role models to emulate for the majority of us
straight back straight thru is the way to go
just my 2 cents

 

[Drop Pocket]

and I think Busty is doing the same thing but aiming with preliminary strokes at the center-base of the CB.

I saw Nick Varner aim this way in the mid '80s and I asked him about it. He just said it was "an aiming system".

 

[kollegedave]

Most of us think stroke is important -- and maybe for most people it is -- but I've seen Mizerak nearly cold-cock a bystander while applying extreme right hand english, Ghost hit his head on the table light on his follow-through, and Wayne beat everybody's brains out without ever looking threatening.

Mitch.... Aw, nevermind.

Maybe stroke is important up to a certain level of natural ability, and not so much thereafter. And stance is claimed by some to be really important, but we can see top players with all kinds of different stances.

One of our better players -- Bill Stroud -- recently took himself through a big stroke change and feels it's made a real difference.

One of the best players that ever lived -- Buddy Hall -- had/has all three: solid stance, pure stroke, natural ability..

I don't know about the old-timers, but I'd bet several of them had pretty crappy strokes or stances.

Are these things really important, just helpful, or nearly irrelevant?

John,

I would respectfully suggest that stance is of the utmost importance. I would recommend Mark Wilson's new book. It is expensive, but if I knew how much it was going to help me, I would have gladly paid double...or more.

I have taken to heart the stance and procedure to get into the stance Mark Wilson advocates for; it has helped me tremendously. I see it the same way Mark does: a sound stance and stroke WILL help you deliver a more accurate stroke on every shot. Over time, the player with a more accurate stroke prevails.

You are right that some great players have strange techniques....Mike Davis is a good example...I am afraid to watch him shoot for fear of "catching" whatever got him, but those players have reached a high level (in my view) not because of their strange techniques, but despite them.

kollegedave

 

[gulfportdoc]

I agree with Stroud and Dave for sure. There is no way to improve on "straight back and straight through" (SBST). And there is no way to get the cue to draw straight back and swing straight through unless the stance is positioned in such a way as to allow that action. Whatever allows for the pole to be on the perfect line of aim and using SBST, then that's the key for the individual player.

I winced when Bill said that he was trying to change his stroke; but happily it sounds like it worked for him very well. My own experience was in trying to change my stance. I'd always had a nice natural position. But years back, in effort to improve my accuracy, I started tinkering with my stance and head position so as to facilitate the SBST swing. And it DID work.....sometimes. When it didn't, I'd try something else, and so on. As a result, all that tinkering has hurt my play a lot. It's kind of like a golfer preparing for his shot: "knees bent, weight on left foot, coil from the shoulders, left hip turn first", etc. All that thought tends to take away from the shot at hand! Now each time I play, it's like re-inventing the wheel to find the right position. Argh.

~Doc

 

[LSJohn]

John,

not because of their strange techniques, but despite them.

kollegedave

Agreed, but they obviously didn't need solid stance and stroke. Would they have been better with better mechanics? Maybe.

IMO, good stance and stroke will help most of us mere mortals.

 

[LSJohn]

~Doc All that thought tends to take away from the shot at hand!

Yep, thoughts about technique are for practice time, not competition. Lucky are those who don't have to think about it either time.

On second thought, some of those "lucky" ones have become "lucky" through hard work and dedication, but some -- Shannon is a good example -- have played so well since a very early age that I have to suspect that whatever technique they needed came more-or-less-naturally.

 

[unoperro]

It seems very important for me too, but my worst flaw is increasing grip pressure on the final stroke. Freddy said something about that which made no sense to me but seems true and has helped me. He said tightening grip would cause under-cutting. Why that wouldn't cause a range of problems rather than just cutting too thin is beyond me, but it sure seems tru

This sounds psychosomatic. Freddy is in your head saying

Tighten your grip and you will thin that ball. Of course you dont want
Freddy to be wrong , so you tighten your grip and ....

Kollegedave is right Mark Wilson has a great book.
Read it very carefully and you will see that he says "This is not the only
way, it is the simplest way to achieve a accurate- repeatable stroke. It is
not easy and requires considerable time and effort.